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[cloud]

I thought I'd start up this issue for discussion;

Is there any concern regarding the distribution and propagation of potentially invasive species? This might not be relevant to the majority of seeds shared here. But, in the case of various Acacia species which are known to be highly invasive, could distribution/propagation potentially be malevolent? In South Africa, Acacia mearnsii and Acacia cyclops are classified as highly invasive species. They have be known to significantly alter ecosystem dynamics, often to the detriment of native flora.

I'm not sure how much of a concern this is as I assume member propagation of the species would only be on a vary localized scale, and not creating plantations.

Any thoughts?

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[MadPlanter]

I live in a place full of invasive! Literally crap loads all over. Animals and plants alike. I know its bad for native flora and fauna but live and let live once its been done I guess and may the best species survive! I'm not necessarily for releasing new stuff to the wilds but I've done quite a bit of it myself...
Escaped snakes and intentionally released plants like mimosa hostilis etc. I'd rather a ton of mimosa be everywhere anyway lol. I know its bad...

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[EIRN]

This is a very important subject. Biological invasions are one of main cause of species lost (extinctions). Maybe only habitat loss is more impacting.
Some care is needed to grow non-native species.
We should be careful not to let the seeds spread out beyond the limits of our cultivation areas.
This is one of the reasons of customs destroy our mail packages with seeds and other plant propagating material

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[Auxin]

As this is an international forum it should be up to the individual grower to control themselves in regards to growing invasives.
As someone in washington it wouldnt make sense for me to avoid a plant because its invasive in south africa or uzbekistan, I once even had a hawaiian hesitate to send me seeds to a tropical plant because it was invasive in his locality. Same with australia. Same with minnesota.
If a species is broadly invasive or invasive in the prospective recipients region its nice to note that. But it shouldnt be obligatory.

Refusing to share 'invasives' is quite distinctly over-emphasized relative to encouraging the sharing of a wider range of plants so plants of equivalent utility, which would have different invasive/native profiles, would be accessible.
For instance, quite a few people grow doraji for its flowers but dont trade the seed, but trade the (often invasive) mullein as cough medicine because its more ubiquitous in english books. Doraji is a quite similar cough medicine.

Instead of trading less and with mistrust, we should trade more.

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[MadPlanter]

Man my environment here is tragically messed up with invasive to the point next to 70% of the animal like you see is invasive. We got parrots, Cuban tree frogs, Cuban brown anole lizards, iguanas, monitor lizards, pythons, tilapia, pleco sucker fish, Japanese walking catfish, wild cats, a host of small fishes, water plants that clog waterways, Oscar fish, I've even heard of people catching pirrannas. Its quite a bit too late here. All those things I listed isn't half of the list! All those things I see quite commonly as well. Damn parrots ate my sunflowers last year!

[fairdinkumseeds]

I reckon any product, be it plant animal or mineral, in the hands of a fool or the uneducated is dangerous.
Most plant collectors I know are very responsible with what they grow. Those that are not, will never be, despite any laws or restrictions placed on them.
The main threats to ecosystems over here is bureaucracy.

Local councils planting "hardy, drought tolerant" imported ornamentals and letting the seeds spread far and wide, or dumping garden waste and clippings in areas of bush(where most rubbish dumps are located) for the seed to dry and blow away. As they mass transport the waste it blows out of the trucks in a steady stream the whole way down our highways.
Or road works where they move soil from one area to another on a mass scale, taking all the invasive weeds with them. They then spread along the roadways and drainage ditches ending up in our creeks and rivers on a large and unmanaged scale.
The contract spraying teams drive their trucks and utes into the thick undergrowth ineffectively and indiscriminately spraying the invasive weeds(and whatever is struggling to survive next to them) and then drive away, carrying the seeds on their machinery. I know this as fact as I did it for a job and could clearly see the spread. In areas that were unsprayed the weed counts were lower as the undergrowth was full of native grasses which slow the spread and provide competition.
Where they have sprayed the ground is bare and full of humus from dead grasses. The perfect place for a surviving weed to set seed and reestablish itself.
Wherever the spay contractors go after leaving the infestation sites, they carry those seeds on mass with them, seeding new pristine areas as they go.
Check any council yard and you will find an amazing array of invasive species, due to this constant dropping of seed. Only the toughest survives the spray, and it doesn't take a genius to work out that it is always gonna be a weed not a delicate threatened native.....

Normal gardeners and collectors do NOT cause these issues, and these issues are the basis for all mass infestations here in OZ.
That is how cats claw, lantana, blackberry, castor bean, nutgrass, rats tailgrass,  and all the other major threats are spread, as is backed up by there own studies.
Most of these plants were also brought in on mass, on purpose, by the bloody government in the first place, not individual collectors.

They spend millions each year trying to unravel the "mystery" of how these weeds are spread, and the data always shows that it is government departments that cause the majority of the problems, and those they don't directly cause, they exacerbate.

Bureaucracy and stupidity is the case of these issues, not any one plant or animal.

If trade was unrestricted, then education would be far more widespread and education is the only way to fix a problem.
By fixing it before it is a problem.
Rules never fixed anything, and that is why the punishments for breaking rules always steadily increase.
Stupid people cause problems, just teach them and trust them, and there won't be any problems.

I hate rules, not because I am a "rebel", but because they just don't bloody work...

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[cloud]

As this is an international forum it should be up to the individual grower to control themselves in regards to growing invasives.

.. Well said Auxin. I think you touched on an important issue here. Responsibility. I believe this community is mature and relatively well informed. I would find it hard to believe that any member would plan on propagating with any malicious intent.

Refusing to share 'invasives' is quite distinctly over-emphasized relative to encouraging the sharing of a wider range of plants so plants of equivalent utility, which would have different invasive/native profiles, would be accessible.

From my own experience with this site I can't say I have come across anyone refusing to trade "invasives". Maybe it's testament to the attitude held by the members.

Most of these plants were also brought in on mass, on purpose, by the bloody government in the first place, not individual collectors.

Which is why I brought up the issue, I don't believe that individual growers are the cause, or should be accredited with the destruction of an ecosystem through the introduction of invasive species.

Fairdinkum., in your opinion is there still a risk associated with growing invasive species even if it is done on a small or localized scale by an individual grower/collector?

Fantastic to see members getting involved in the discussion.

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[fairdinkumseeds]

I don't believe in "weeds".

Seriously. It is a myth, along with "pests".
Every "weed" you can name, I can think of a viable industry that would control and profit from them.
I see weeds or pests as potential untapped "profit", and I immediately find a use for them on my place.
Cane toads make a great compost and store water underground the same way burying fish does, lantana for trellises for my HBWR, bindi and spiny amaranth as chook food.
Now these things are getting hard to find close by the house, and that is just from a couple years of manual control.



On a larger scale cats claw is valued for medicine, lantana for paper/pulp, blackberry for fruit/dye/tea, castor bean for oil/medicine/animal control, nut grass for fodder and pulp, rats tail as cattle food on rotation cropping.
They all have a use, and a profit, but as they are "weeds" you can not sell them or commercially harvest the plant or its products.
And new uses will never be found as there is no driving force to do so. Not allowed to profit from a weed, so no one tries to find new markets.

Yet profit is the only realistic way to control anything in the free market?

Unfortunately there is plenty of  profit to be made with spray contraction, studies, weed mapping, at the border by government regulation, import permits, inspections, lab testing, and other ineffective control measures.
Billions of dollars actually, far more than any pest or weed could ever cost.

And that is where the problem is. Government regulation is ineffective at stopping the spread of anything, and I believe it creates the perfect conditions for these infestations to occur.

To sum up.
I see no threat to the ecosystem from introducing anything anywhere, provided there is a use for it.
If there is a use, the plant can be managed sustainably, indefinitely.
And if there was no use, then there would be no reason to import in the first place, don't you reckon?

I think you touched on an important issue here. Responsibility. I believe this community is mature and relatively well informed. I would find it hard to believe that any member would plan on propagating with any malicious intent.

I agree, and at the end of the day, if they did have a hankering to do the wrong thing, no rule, law or import restriction would ever stop them doing so anyway.
To think it would is just ridiculous I reckon?

In my youth I never let any laws stop me from doing what I wanted, if it seemed reasonable at the time, and many times the laws themselves have been the greatest motivation for me to do the opposite. I am sure that is pretty natural response and the main reason there are new laws every day.
 

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[Auxin]

In my youth... many times the laws themselves have been the greatest motivation for me to do the opposite

I can relate to this. In my teens I kept a marijuana leaf under the insole in my right shoe for two years just so I'd always be breaking the law. If any arrogant sonofabitch felt the need to lecture me about the sinfulness of drugs I could just stand proud

I don't believe in "weeds".

I've found uses for most 'weeds' on my property. Most are food or medicine while two at least serve to add high protein biomass to my perpetually carbon heavy compost pile (just try to make a huge compost pile in the desert, you'll be glad for hairy vetch and field bindweed). I find it strange how people in my town pay $40 for henbit killer herbicide when henbit is a late winter vegetable which only grows where people have been neglecting their grass.
In the abidhamma a story is told about the buddhas physicians time in medical school. At the end one of his final exams was he was given a ox cart at dawn and told to go to the forest and bring back anything that was not medicine. He returned just after sunset with an empty cart, he said he couldnt find anything that wasnt medicine.

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[SoulGrower]

Every "weed" you can name, I can think of a viable industry that would control and profit from them.
I see weeds or pests as potential untapped "profit", and I immediately find a use for them on my place.

Amen!  We've got air potato (Dioscorea bulbifera) growing out of control in our state.  Considered a noxious weed cause it smothers any plant it grows on.  I keep trying to find a buyer (it contains diosengenin which is the primary material used for synthetic steroids) so I can start my dream business... hiking through the woods and harvesting plants    More than enough supply, perform a service for our park system and pay my bills!

Although, I agree with the overall sentiment.. typically not much risk to the ecosystem from individuals, you never know.  Rarely, it may only take very few instances.  I know that the lionfish population, another invasive here, has been proven, through genetic testing, recently to have stemmed from only 7 original fish.  And they are a real problem.  So I think it should be considered carefully.

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[fairdinkumseeds]

No doubt. Introduced species do stuff things up, and the way we do things doesn't work.
Needs to be more education to prevent ill-considered releases happening(and the easier something is to get, the more knowledge there is about it), and then finding a profit for the ones that do cause problems, instead of pointless and ineffective irradication programs.
 
We have carp over here in the freshwater down south, and they cause heaps of problems if left unchecked.
They muddy the waters, they eat all the native fry, they are prolific breeders and grow massive compared to all our natives.
Folks don't eat them, despite them being a good chew.
For years they used poisons to kill them. Rotenone in particular, and it killed not only the carp, but all the little natives they were trying to protects(galaxids cod etc).
After they poison it cause blue green algae blooms for all the dead fish and then the turtles and birds would die too.

Now there is a huge industry netting them for fertilizer. "Charlie Carp" They use a large mesh net and catch all the medium-large carp only from sections of the river.
They will never wipe them out, BUT, there is no need to now.
The numbers are manageable, the natives are returning, and adapting, and there is a new industry and profit for the people.
Everyone wins.

Lionfish are tasty.
Instead of doing research on where they are, how they got there and the damage they are causing, folks should be doing research on the venom for pharmaceutical use, or the China/SE Asian market as an export.
Gene mapping costs millions, imagine if they spent those millions on marketing and product development.....

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[Roze]

This subject is very interesting and appropriate for this forum where various species are shared to many places far from their natural habitat.

The plant diversity of my country is seriously threatened due to invasive species, forests are being invaded by acacias and eucalyptus. Quercus robur (oak  tree ) and the  Pinus pinaster / Pinus pinea  are disappearing rapidly while Acacia Dealbata, Acacia Longifolia and Robina Pseudoacacia increase their territory even in the mountains with cold winters!

but once again is the government fault... after the summer fires, they propagated thousands of thousands of eucalyptus due to its rapid growth, which makes it economically very profitable...

Agriculture also is threatened by some species:  Oxalis Pes- Caprae or Hakea Sericea etc, besides the  nutrients devour  they have a very high cost of eradication for local populations..

But not everything is bad, the cities are now much more colorful thanks to the pretty Ipomea Indica.. she is everywhere, there´s not abandoned house that isn´t covered by its beautiful purple flowers!

I've been thinking about this and maybe humans are not the only guilty on this situation...perhaps the migratory birds also have an important role in the propagation of some invasive species? 

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[Seed Collector]

Since Acacias were mentioned, I will add a link that includes identification, cultivation, and eradication information:

Acacia.zip

Mimosa.zip

Federal Noxious Weed List as of December 10, 2010 (USA)

Introduced, Invasive, and Noxious Plants: Federal and State Noxious Weeds

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