Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Username: Password:

Author Topic: Plant Sentience  (Read 10909 times)

Khaedin

  • Member
  • Karma: 5
  • Posts: 50
  • Trading Score: +1
Plant Sentience
« on: February 25, 2014, 02:17:07 AM »

I have a little brain teaser for you all. How can a plant, completely independent of outdoor influences, know that a light is about to turn off an hour ahead of when it does? Does the plant understand the concept of time? I get why plants turn up, but that's outside where there are changes in the color spectrum, the suns placement in the sky, temperature changes, etc. that are indicators of the sun setting. Under a light that does not dim, move, or fade, how can the plant "know" that the light is turning off soon?

I don't want to hear some mumbo jumbo about the genetics of plants or how its "in its DNA". I want YOUR opinion.
Logged

TBM

  • The Botanical Madman
  • Global Moderator
  • Karma: 91
  • Posts: 782
  • Trading Score: +75
  • Onward to the new
Re: Plant Sentience
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2014, 04:46:36 AM »

There is potential for plants having sentience in my opinion... however that doesn't explain how the plants are capable of knowing when the lights are going to turn on/off (from a physical standpoint), perhaps it's similar to muscle memory??

All i know is that if the plants are capable of knowing when a light is turning on/off without any outdoor influences, than one must assume that it is capable of at least 2 things: keeping track of time and remembering when; Before my Mimosa pudica seedlings died from winter's cold (got more seeds sown for spring now  :)), they would regularly open their leaves a half hour before the light turned on, and they would begin to close about a half hour before the light turned back off, I even went so far as to shift the light cycle up a few hours (still 12-hr on/off cycle) to see how they would react... the first day they opened as if they expected the light to be on like I hadn't shifted the light cycle, and by the third day they had already adjusted to the new timing...

Edit: New Wisdom has posted one of the articles I read about it but couldn't find the link for 8)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 04:52:56 AM by TBM »
Logged

Khaedin

  • Member
  • Karma: 5
  • Posts: 50
  • Trading Score: +1
Re: Plant Sentience
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2014, 12:36:18 PM »

Yes, exactly. The only variable the plant has to go by is time. I wondered myself what it would do if I adjusted the time frame by a few hours, but being that its growing so well and flowering profusely, I'd prefer not to disturb it. Thank you for your insight. Taking all opinions, I would like to hear what everyone thinks, or has noticed any similar phenomena.
Logged

nobody

  • Administrator
  • Karma: 124
  • Posts: 776
  • Trading Score: +335
  • Hidden Member Extraordinaire
Re: Plant Sentience
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2014, 02:08:46 PM »

gnosis posted a very nice documentary that deals with this subject. Check it out, it´s worth watching.

http://sharetheseeds.me/forum/index.php?topic=1147.msg7683#msg7683

 :)
Logged
¨At any time, you can turn on your computer, log into Facebook and watch humanity´s collective ego, mid masturbation¨.

Sunshine

  • Global Moderator
  • Karma: 172
  • Posts: 1611
  • Trading Score: +101
  • Hibernating
Re: Plant Sentience
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2014, 04:11:02 PM »

I think they 'wake up' and 'get sleepy' in the same way we do; with an internal clock. Have you ever woke up right before your alarm clock went off? I think something similar takes place inside plants.

Conditioning comes to my mind when searching for a word to label it as but that doesn't seem to do it justice. 'Bodies' and life adapt to change.

That's my take on it.

-Sunny
Logged

New Wisdom

  • Professional Cactus Hoarder
  • Global Moderator
  • Karma: 179
  • Posts: 2270
  • Trading Score: +223
  • Zone 6B
Re: Plant Sentience
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2014, 04:34:37 AM »

I get what you mean sunshine, but we have a brain that does that for us.  It's our neural activity that dictates that.  What are they using?  Do they have memory? That's what I want to know.  How can something without a brain or nervous system do these things.

Check out this article.
http://www.sci-news.com/biology/science-mimosa-plants-memory-01695.html
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 04:40:57 AM by New Wisdom »
Logged
Cactus = Life

Khaedin

  • Member
  • Karma: 5
  • Posts: 50
  • Trading Score: +1
Re: Plant Sentience
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2014, 06:19:59 PM »

I get what you mean sunshine, but we have a brain that does that for us.  It's our neural activity that dictates that.  What are they using?  Do they have memory? That's what I want to know.  How can something without a brain or nervous system do these things.

Check out this article.
http://www.sci-news.com/biology/science-mimosa-plants-memory-01695.html

New Wisdom is on the same page as me.


That article is definitely a good read, I'm glad someone is putting resources into getting a better understanding of plants. They're our life source regardless of how you slice it.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 06:29:33 PM by Khaedin »
Logged

MadPlanter

  • Global Moderator
  • Karma: 188
  • Posts: 1650
  • Trading Score: +929
  • Tye dyed spirit
Re: Plant Sentience
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2014, 06:43:37 PM »

I cannot speak on how I know this to be true to me but I can say this. Plants are conscious beings and they even know when we are near them or intend to do something to them. They seemingly don't have a nervous system like ours but they do work in similar ways. I don't believe their spiritual essence is concentrated as ours is with the brain and CNS. Instead they must reside their memory and outward ability to react to stimuli in their individual cellular structure. This would make sense when it comes to taking a cutting for instance. Not like the new cutting is "stupid" because it was ripped away from its parent or brain matrix. It is automatically capable of doing its own thing aka it is now a new separate plant. Studies have been done on this but I cannot link an example but science has measured with an energy meter of sorts the output of plants while messing with others near by. The plants not being touched made the meter jump up and down as if they were scared knowing the plant next to them was being pruned and taking on damage. I believe it although I cannot really prove any of this rambling...
Logged
Spreading love!

Khaedin

  • Member
  • Karma: 5
  • Posts: 50
  • Trading Score: +1
Re: Plant Sentience
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2014, 09:20:49 PM »

They are sentient in the sense that they can react to their environment and adapt to suit their needs. Is this not what we do, just on a larger scale? A conscience is what I'm interested in, and until you can find a way to communicate, I don't think you can dismiss the idea of consciousness in the plant world.
Logged

Sunshine

  • Global Moderator
  • Karma: 172
  • Posts: 1611
  • Trading Score: +101
  • Hibernating
Re: Plant Sentience
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2014, 11:02:35 PM »

I get what you mean sunshine, but we have a brain that does that for us.  It's our neural activity that dictates that.  What are they using?  Do they have memory? That's what I want to know.  How can something without a brain or nervous system do these things.

Check out this article.
http://www.sci-news.com/biology/science-mimosa-plants-memory-01695.html

Plants have a rudimentary nervous system of sorts. They use electricity to communicate information back and forth between their parts within themselves.

Plants definitely have several different forms of memory, just like people do. They have short term memory, immune memory and even transgenerational memory! I know this is a hard concept to grasp for some people, but if memory entails forming the memory (encoding information), retaining the memory (storing information), and recalling the memory (retrieving information), then plants definitely remember. For example a Venus Fly Trap needs to have two of the hairs on its leaves touched by a bug in order to shut, so it remembers that the first one has been touched. But this only lasts about 20 seconds, and then it forgets. Wheat seedlings remember that they’ve gone through winter before they start to flower and make seeds. And some stressed plants give rise to progeny that are more resistant to the same stress, a type of transgenerational memory that’s also been recently shown also in animals. While the short term memory in the venus fly trap is electricity-based, much like neural activity, the longer term memories are based in epigenetics — changes in gene activity that don’t require alterations in the DNA code, as mutations do, which are still passed down from parent to offspring.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-plants-think-daniel-chamovitz/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2676749/
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 11:05:33 PM by Sunshine »
Logged

New Wisdom

  • Professional Cactus Hoarder
  • Global Moderator
  • Karma: 179
  • Posts: 2270
  • Trading Score: +223
  • Zone 6B
Re: Plant Sentience
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2014, 11:14:56 PM »

Interesting!   I am very excited that this stuff is being taken seriously in the scientific community.   I personally believe that plants are conscious. Maybe not in the way we are, but I believe they are. 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 11:20:16 PM by New Wisdom »
Logged
Cactus = Life

Greentoe

  • Senior Member
  • Karma: 107
  • Posts: 557
  • Trading Score: +240
Re: Plant Sentience
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2014, 05:48:31 AM »

Ive seen yhe same behavior in mimosas i have growing inside under a light. without faik they close up about an hour before i turn off the light.

There's no question in my mind that plants are concious and have memories. Jeremy Narby's book "Intellegence in Nature" has a chapter called Plants as Brains that has a lot of interesting information about intellegence in plants. I'd recommend reading the book if you haven't already its not too long and its very fascinating.

Here are some interesting quotes that seem relevant from that book with Narby interviewing Anthony Trewavas.

"Trewava's intuition about calcium's role in learning in both animals and plants was confirmed by subsequent research. Scientists recently discovered that when an animal learns to avoid a threat, charged atoms of calcium and specific molecules including enzymes are unleashed inside its neurons. They set about modifying the molecular structure of the channels that span the neurons' outer membranes and control the import and export of charged atoms and molecules. If the threat to the animal persists, its neurons go on to produce proteins that build new connections, or synapses, between neurons. Along with changes in the strength of existing connections, these synapses give rise to memory, and allow the animal to remember the threat and avoid it.
       An analogous process occurs in plants. When a plant is threatened, by lack of water, for example, exactly the same atoms and molecules are unleashed inside its cells. And they set off the same reactions, first modifying the same import-export channels, then stimulating the production of proteins if the threat persists. Eventually, the plant modifies its cells and their behavior so that its leaves get smaller, it's shoots cease to grow, and its roots extend. These responses minimize further stress and injury to the plant. They also take into accoun external factors such as nutrients and temperature, as well as the plants age and previous history"

And

"Brain signals tend to be small molecules, whereas plant signals tend to be large and complicated, such as proteins and RNA transcripts. This had only become clear in the last five years, he said. Prior to then "no one would really believe that proteins would be swimming around a plant providing information." And large molecules can handle large amounts of information, which means there is room for enormous complexity in plant communication. "But you are quite right when you ask about computation: Where does it actually exist? I don't know. And the answer is almost certainly: It's in the whole organism."
   Plants do not have brains, so much as act like them."
Logged

t_tristani2002

  • Trader
  • Karma: 7
  • Posts: 30
  • Trading Score: +7
  • Sapere Aude
Re: Plant Sentience
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2014, 04:40:04 AM »

In regards to what Madplanter stated, I've been reading a lot of bhuddists texts lately, there seemed to be a lot of truth to the idea (to me) that we are conscious beings and that we manifest reality and ourselves. So energetic conscious reality induces manifestations of physical reality. The same concept is applied to plants and their spirits manifesting. I had read this idea also in some other esoteric circles, with the idea of occult use of plants and shamanism, that the plant body is manifested as a physical plant, and that the spirit of the plant resides in the chemical structures housed within it. Through use of the plant in the appropriate manner of intent, the spirit is shown to you and may guide you to show the other planes of existence.
Logged
~tristan