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General and Off Topic => General Discussion => Topic started by: MadPlanter on September 25, 2016, 07:51:37 PM

Title: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: MadPlanter on September 25, 2016, 07:51:37 PM
First teotwawki stands for: the end of the world as we know it.

I'm just curious how many of you are concerned this is even remotely possible. Especially USA members given the circus going on here. But also the non USA members I'd like to hear from. How do you guys view our current status as a people and country? Are we a joke to you or do you just see us as hedonistic bastards or nothing bad at all?

I decide to ask just because I'm weird and in the wake of so many youtubers claiming Tuesday the usa economy is gonna tank. Not saying I believe it but it gets one thinking. I don't think a definitive date can be set for such a thing but then some feel everyday could be the time between a second from now and decades down the road.

All things considered...the political circus, state of the planet's ecology, conspiracy of nwo and aliens etc we are vastly more fragile a society than is easily perceived by the average masses.

I say you...what do y'all think?

If this is unacceptable to post or gets outta hand then mods please discard. Let's try not to get heated or argumentive with each other and just roll out opinions not trying to disdain any other's thoughts. Its a learning thing not a fight each others opinion bash.

Let it roll peeps!
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: plantlight on September 25, 2016, 09:09:29 PM
Complex topic MP. I'm not concerned that it will happen Tuesday, but yes it's evident that there is a lot of unrest globally.  Rapid changes can and do happen in periods of unrest. 

So yes, it's coming.  Probably before we're ready for it.  The effects you feel will depend on your location but worldwide zombie apocalypse seems rather remote.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: LIBERTYNY on September 26, 2016, 05:47:30 AM
 I grew up in the survival mantra, So yes im very concerned with the current state of events.

But historically speaking when things go bad they dont happen over-night but are long drawn out process that happen slowely so the people dont all of the sudden say enouth is enouth and move away.   Like the frog in water analogy

  (The boiling frog is an anecdote describing a frog slowly being boiled alive. The premise is that if a frog is put suddenly into boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is put in cold water which is then brought to a boil slowly, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death. The story is often used as a metaphor for the inability or unwillingness of people to react to or be aware of threats that rise gradually)

 Any way you look at it the current state of affairs in the US is MISERABLE (wheither your right/left) and is not getting any better.   US national debt is 19.5 TRILLION, Thats huge even when you look at the statistics when it's broken down to how much money each individual owes.
   "The estimated population of the United States is 323,824,789
so each citizen's share of this debt is $60,301.63."

 Now rember how many citizens (and illegals) are just parasitic dead weight. the number about doubles,  then of coarse we dont even have a plan to begin paying it off.  or even worse think of the plans some of our goverment may have.


  Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

 support your local militia 

  III%
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: nobody on September 26, 2016, 12:43:00 PM

I'm just curious how many of you are concerned this is even remotely possible. Especially USA members given the circus going on here. But also the non USA members I'd like to hear from. How do you guys view our current status as a people and country? Are we a joke to you or do you just see us as hedonistic bastards or nothing bad at all?

My opinion is, the US is like a mentally deficent toddler with an AK47. Go right, go left, either way it is going to end in tears. I started preparing to leave the US permanently in 2007 and left in 2009, with no plans to return.

History teaches us that several milestones will be passed before an empire starts it's decent into oblivion. With the current level of technology the American Empire has already reached the majority of these and is well along the path of decent into oblivion. That being the case (imo), I found it was time to leave. I was taught the US was supposed to be a Republic, when I took a good look at things all I could see was Facism masquerading as democracy, neither being represetnative of a Republic.

As far as the economy goes, the only thing propping it up is faith. This being the case it is destined to fall and when it does it will not be pretty. Persians, Romans, Chinese, British and many others have all had their empires crumble from beneath them when their monitary units became useless and when it happened government sanctioned atrocities were the only attempts made to cushion the fall. I expect no less from our empire, in fact I expect the atrocites to set a new standard of horror that has never been seen before.

As a side note, I sort of take issue with the illegals statement Liberty.

nobody
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: MadPlanter on September 26, 2016, 02:15:28 PM
I can agree in certain ways with all of you guys.

I like the toddler analogy nobody puts forth. I feel similar about our species as a whole. We're in my eyes a teenage culture. We are in the stage that we love to play with fire but haven't got burnt enough to grow up and respect the fact fire is potentially dangerous. We are in some ways getting over the fire stage but there's a long road to go. Idk if we as a whole are capable of pulling through in the end. Take a good look at the average American. There's already a zombie Apocalypse going on in terms of mentality. A herd of sheep being sheparded for the slaughter by the wolves themselves. We are the sheepdogs but we are vastly out numbered.

Hardly a person in America is interested in even trying to answer the fundamental questions of human existence. No one wants to boggle their mind unlike myself because I love to baffle myself. Its way too easy to be entertained by the glam of modern amenities. All the fluoride and shit food and products zap the life blood from our beings and make it even less likely anyone would care to do anything in any way that's remotely positive for mind or society abroad.

These are weird times folks. I know I'll be in serious trouble too if shit happens but perhaps it won't end well for the nwo either. Drastically reduce the human population would help the earth out long term. Its sad but the zombies should go. Its a seemingly bad stance for me to take. However I don't think our species deserves the earth any longer or at least not most of us. Maybe a huge cataclysmic event will wise our asses up.

Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mangrove on September 26, 2016, 03:25:38 PM
I've invested a good chunk of my time spent in the blue dot on the red neck of FL hunting down sources of food & water; I must say i've found quite an abundance of edible plants as well as a couple small farms I volunteer on in exchange for food. Being the stereotypical el-cheapo student with a super tight belt/budget, I've been doing all I can to keep a cheap but well balanced diet; this has mostly entailed tracking down local abundances of naturally occurring food stuffs. I've also found a food pantry on my campus where I tend to get a few pounds and a couple dozen cans' worth of food on a weekly basis as well. I feel fortunate and privileged to live in a forager's paradise where food costs are down to ~10-20 bucks a week due to all the free naturally-occuring foodstuffs and agricultural community as well as food pantries.

I don't like American politics, and tend to shy away from IRL partisan debate unless it directly impacts my life and/or the objects I consume. This teowawki scenario MP paints-out has been an indirect focus of my foraging adventures around my locality (the primary goal being to spend as little on food as possible whilst maintaining a well-balanced & nutritious diet). If a Fallout-esque scenario does indeed play out (and if this area doesn't get nuked or annexed by the ocean), I feel fairly confident that I could fend for and feed myself fairly well with both the food seeds i've accumulated here and the relative abundance of natural food sources, rivers & farms in my area; i'm not well-accustomed to camping, though, so that may be something new to learn! Otherwise, I feel rather confident in my ability to fend for and feed myself & my future post-apocalyptic harem.

Alas, i'm not one to dwell on the inevitable; I have way too much on my plate as it is to worry about such a futuristic worst case scenario. While I would enjoy crafting an apocalyptical-themed novella, I most certainly wouldn't want to constantly plan for it while I have one helluva grocery list to deal with and a galaxy of local foodstuffs, but I do feel better prepared than most others in my locality (hence why I predicted the accumulation of a harem due to my relatively advanced foraging & farming skills; food is one of our universally-shared addictions, and we all know what full blown addicts will do for their drugs of choice when all else fails...)

"Fuck the path; I walk alone."--Death Grips
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mangrove on September 26, 2016, 03:34:48 PM
I can agree in certain ways with all of you guys.



Hardly a person in America is interested in even trying to answer the fundamental questions of human existence. No one wants to boggle their mind unlike myself because I love to baffle myself.


"I think; therefore I am [a snooty French narcissist]." --some crazy philosopher from the 17th century
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: GrowerAndaShower on September 26, 2016, 03:41:40 PM
I can agree in certain ways with all of you guys.

I like the toddler analogy nobody puts forth. I feel similar about our species as a whole. We're in my eyes a teenage culture. We are in the stage that we love to play with fire but haven't got burnt enough to grow up and respect the fact fire is potentially dangerous. We are in some ways getting over the fire stage but there's a long road to go. Idk if we as a whole are capable of pulling through in the end. Take a good look at the average American. There's already a zombie Apocalypse going on in terms of mentality. A herd of sheep being sheparded for the slaughter by the wolves themselves. We are the sheepdogs but we are vastly out numbered.

Hardly a person in America is interested in even trying to answer the fundamental questions of human existence. No one wants to boggle their mind unlike myself because I love to baffle myself. Its way too easy to be entertained by the glam of modern amenities. All the fluoride and shit food and products zap the life blood from our beings and make it even less likely anyone would care to do anything in any way that's remotely positive for mind or society abroad.

These are weird times folks. I know I'll be in serious trouble too if shit happens but perhaps it won't end well for the nwo either. Drastically reduce the human population would help the earth out long term. Its sad but the zombies should go. Its a seemingly bad stance for me to take. However I don't think our species deserves the earth any longer or at least not most of us. Maybe a huge cataclysmic event will wise our asses up.



Hate to say it, but I agree with you. I have a feeling, and have for awhile, that the US's population at the very least(and possibly the world) was going to decrease rapidly very soon.  And I don't actually think that's a problem...  The majority of people are not interested in actually contributing to society. Because of this, society has been going downhill for a long time. A fresh start might be exactly what we need.
It's nice to know I've got sources of Scopalamine and Atropine in case of Saron Gas attacks though! lol. Thanks Datura!
I wonder if datura juice on some spikes surrounding my "home base" would be a viable defense strategy...
Then again, maybe the earth is just going to boot the disease that is humanity off the face of the Earth. Seems like she's been coming at us hard with earthquakes, hurricanes, and tsunamis recently.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Skink on September 27, 2016, 12:00:50 AM
I welcome the apocalypse. The environmental collapse is going to affect us far more than the collapse of the American economy you can be sure. That will be the actual end of the world (for humans anyway). At this point, if everyone in the world woke up tomorrow and decided they cared about the environment and worked REALLY REALLY HARD to reverse everything they've donrle, and all the oil barons and coal burners decided they would invest all their money in more renewable forms of energy than maybe just maybe, we could prevent it. Problem is, something like that's never gonna happen and people are gonna remain hateful and wasteful and unappreciative til we reach the point of no return and by then it will be too late. I'm 26 and I foresee it happening within my lifetime. The climate is already much different than it was when I was a kid. Winter lasts longer here and starts earlier every year. Summers are on the record, hotter and more humid. I can only imagine what it's like in other areas
This world is gonna burn because of us, and when it does, I'm just gonna be there laughing til the flames consume me too. Perhaps some other more deserving species will inherit the earth.
Sorry for that. I get pretty dramatic when I talk about people and my hatred of them -_-' 
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Ian Morris on September 27, 2016, 12:11:18 AM
This is a subject of great importance lately in my family and social circle.  The recent gas shortage opened people's eyes to the fact that a) people are shitty to each other in times of stress and uncertainty and b) that I am not crazy for wanting to stay prepared. 

I think people are restless because of the impending election and the absolutely miserable state of our economy.  That being said, I think our Kleptocracy will continue to limp along for some time.  The Romans figured it out, keep the sheep happy with bread and circus and the ruling elite can do whatever they want.

So as long as we don't have bread lines or massive food shortages and we can always turn to the Kardashians for succor, the Kleptocracy will continue. 

In defense of LIBERTY (hah!), I think he was referring to the percentage of illegals that are tax drains, there are plenty but it corresponds nicely to the same percentage of natives.  As an immigration attorney I hate the rhetoric that surrounds the issue, but yes some illegals are a net drain on taxes. 

Also, man I wish the III% guys around here were a little less 'out there'.  I was invited to a gathering and halfway through I was wondering if my security clearance was going to get revoked.  I am sure each sect is different but in Mooresville NC they are pretty extreme, and this is coming from an anarchist. 

-Ian
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mangrove on September 27, 2016, 12:36:36 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIdPPVkkHYs
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: nobody on September 27, 2016, 02:49:07 AM
Sorry for that. I get pretty dramatic when I talk about people and my hatred of them -_-'


Best statement ever  :) :) :)

nobody
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: nobody on September 27, 2016, 03:33:46 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleptocracy




nobody
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: MRTree on September 27, 2016, 03:46:03 AM
We will all be fine, we are too smart to fail now, we know too much, we just procrastinate. Start small, garden, grow your own food, own power, share, teach others, believe in faith and science, don't waste time and needed things, in short evolve past being our own worst enemies , stop being too scared to change.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: LIBERTYNY on September 27, 2016, 05:27:24 AM
This is a subject of great importance lately in my family and social circle.  The recent gas shortage opened people's eyes to the fact that a) people are shitty to each other in times of stress and uncertainty and b) that I am not crazy for wanting to stay prepared. 

I think people are restless because of the impending election and the absolutely miserable state of our economy.  That being said, I think our Kleptocracy will continue to limp along for some time.  The Romans figured it out, keep the sheep happy with bread and circus and the ruling elite can do whatever they want.

So as long as we don't have bread lines or massive food shortages and we can always turn to the Kardashians for succor, the Kleptocracy will continue. 

In defense of LIBERTY (hah!), I think he was referring to the percentage of illegals that are tax drains, there are plenty but it corresponds nicely to the same percentage of natives.  As an immigration attorney I hate the rhetoric that surrounds the issue, but yes some illegals are a net drain on taxes. 

Also, man I wish the III% guys around here were a little less 'out there'.  I was invited to a gathering and halfway through I was wondering if my security clearance was going to get revoked.  I am sure each sect is different but in Mooresville NC they are pretty extreme, and this is coming from an anarchist. 

-Ian

We dont have bread lines ? ?

 Bread Lines of the Modern Era

To visualize the situation, if all EBT recipients shopped at only Walmart Super Centers for all of their SNAP benefits, then this is how the bread line would look each month at each Walmart — 14,588 people.

The line on the left: 4.1 miles of adults
The line on the right: 3.7 miles of children


Walmart bread line
image: demonocracy.info

There are 3,051 Walmart Super Centers in the USA and 44,510,598 participants in SNAP (2011 data), making the average SNAP line at each and every Walmart consist of 14,588 people.

The Modern Era’s Bread Lines are not visible because the business is handled discreetly through EBT Cards, as the card holders come and go to the grocery stores like anyone else would during any given day, week, or month…

 
Short Facts:
47% of Food Stamp participants are children.
78.6% of all SNAP participants are in metropolitan areas.

 
Visualizing this REALITY not only illustrates the magnitude of today’s problems, but it also serves as a caution as to the number of people and potential ‘unrest’ should their government cheese be reduced or even eliminated. How long will the government be able to continue and pay out enormous benefits to such a large and apparently increasing percentage of Americans? Certainly not forever. The government is already broke – it’s just that not everyone has realized it yet.

The purpose here has NOT been to diminish anyone who may truly be in need, but instead it is to point out that much of our economic sickness as a nation is being hidden from your view – which is helping to stretch out the end-game (by avoiding a revolting public). Problems need to be addressed – not papered over.

(http://)
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: MadPlanter on September 27, 2016, 12:20:31 PM
This is it...the ominous Tuesday morning...highly doubt anything will happen but its interesting to see.

I'm happy with all the comments. Everyone here is a down to earth person it seems with realistic points of view despite a diversity of views.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Frog Pajamas on September 27, 2016, 12:26:25 PM
Do you have more of a problem with running up debt for social service programs than tax breaks, Liberty? Tax breaks account for more debt than all discretionary spending combined.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: LIBERTYNY on September 27, 2016, 08:09:14 PM
 Well let me first say this,  i did not intend to offend anyone.   And after rereading my post im not sure why anyone would take offense to it ?  Im normally a very polite person, and I would say sorry, but im not sure what for.

 Im a libertarian,
 so I take offense to all social service programs period.
 As far as taxes are concerned,  I believe better than 95% of taxes is nothing but theft.  I dont know anyone that works for a living that is not massively overtaxed including the socalled 1% supper rich.
 So i cant get mad at anyone for self defense of their money, Personally I consider cheating on your taxes a patriotic act.   

 “Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.”     
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Ian Morris on September 27, 2016, 09:23:19 PM
Ill second everything LIBERTYNY said above.  However, unlike my libertarian amigos, I do not think there is a single situation where the collective (and by collective I mean public) use of force would be justified. 

To FPs point; treating a rebate or an incentive as a net loss is like when my wife tells me how much money she saved getting deals @ Belks. 

-Ian
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: MadPlanter on September 27, 2016, 11:17:21 PM
To FPs point; treating a rebate or an incentive as a net loss is like when my wife tells me how much money she saved getting deals @ Belks. 

Would you please explain further?

Otherwise I must say I agree with liberty for the most part. I'm against govt programs and taxes simultaneously. I personally believe if we were good hearted creatures we could exist quite well without govt. We are a long ways from that because of our current state but with proper educative means in time we could accomplish it no problem. If everyone were to take a serious stance tomorrow to want to discover true spirituality it could be done in no time. Obviously though this is a pipe dream as it won't happen but I can still say I want it too!
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Skink on September 28, 2016, 12:07:35 AM
I agree with everything you said madplanter.
 
Quote
I dont know anyone that works for a living that is not massively overtaxed including the socalled 1% supper rich

This is actually not true. I you know any rich 1%ers that complain about their taxes kindly slap them.

http://www.americansfortaxfairness.org/tax-fairness-briefing-booklet/fact-sheet-taxing-wealthy-americans/
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Ian Morris on September 28, 2016, 12:32:23 AM
Skink that website is slap full of half truths and outright spin.  It is thinly veiled alt-left progressive taxation.  While I do agree that many of these loophole should be closed, my solution wouldn't be to increase the progressive effect of taxes.  Nor would I disguise this message as fair, because that would mean I didn't understand the meaning of the word, or worse applied some nebulous definition (which I would argue is the root cause of the loopholes to begin with).

I am all for tax fairness but what that website advocates is not fair in any understanding of the word.  Even by their own numbers the 1% pay an effective rate of 24.7% with the national average of 19.3%.  So please tell me what you consider fair?

Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mangrove on September 28, 2016, 12:34:42 AM
If you wanna see some 1/2 truths, click on this link:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/home/index.php

I'm a believer; are you?
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Manigordo on September 28, 2016, 02:05:05 AM
This is an interesting topic, but imho there is much more to it than ongoing developments in the US.
Yes, teotwawki will happen and it has already started to happen. It will not be one single catastrophic event (at least not as long as Trump won't win), but rather a chain of events triggered by climate change and it's dire consequences, like conflicts about water.  The situation will gradually worsen, but humans are smart and most of us will escape disaster for many years to come. Yet, eventually it will get us.
We are just too many, everybody wants to live in luxury and we have already f*cked it up.

Thoughts from a non US guy.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: plantlight on September 29, 2016, 01:00:04 PM
However, unlike my libertarian amigos, I do not think there is a single situation where the collective (and by collective I mean public) use of force would be justified.
Ian,
I like the concept and can envision a collective that operates without the initiation of force.  However, it seems to me that defense is a use of force that would be justified.  Further, until such time that sufficient technology has been developed to provide impenetrable shielding from attack, a reactive use of force is perhaps the only was to stop an attack.  Perhaps I misunderstand. 

Please elaborate. :)

Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mangrove on September 29, 2016, 03:20:30 PM
However, unlike my libertarian amigos, I do not think there is a single situation where the collective (and by collective I mean public) use of force would be justified.
Ian,
I like the concept and can envision a collective that operates without the initiation of force.  However, it seems to me that defense is a use of force that would be justified.  Further, until such time that sufficient technology has been developed to provide impenetrable shielding from attack, a reactive use of force is perhaps the only was to stop an attack.  Perhaps I misunderstand. 

Please elaborate. :)

There are these things called forests and national parks and Wyoming/Montana.

Go really deep into those areas. Build a log cabin. Forage and feed and make fires

Then when things are going good collect a harem.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: nikshaz on September 29, 2016, 03:35:54 PM
I'm in Wyoming, we have land here. All of you guys/girls are welcome if it did come to it. We will grow for our own sustainability. I'm serious.

If anything occurred, the people here would stand together. IMO, this state is really self sufficient. All resources are here. If Wyoming really wanted to, we could build a wall around the state and live for hundreds of years. We would have some people who would be pirates of the land but this state has a lot of gun owners. Like everyone here owns a gun. I'm not joking

People want to continue their kin, they'll do it by any means possible.

I want to edit this in, Im mainly speaking for Wyoming, small town(s), no large cities. It's a different story in other places.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mangrove on September 29, 2016, 04:14:09 PM
In Wyoming, we have land here. All of you guys are welcome if it did come to it. We will grow for our own sustainability. I'm serious.

If anything occurred, the people here would stand together. IMO, this state is really self sufficient. All resources are here. If Wyoming really wanted to, we could build a wall around the state and live for hundreds of years. We would have some people who would be pirates of the land but this state has a lot of gun owners. Like everyone here owns a gun. I'm not joking

People want to continue their kin, they'll do it by any means possible.

I want to edit this in, Im mainly speaking for Wyoming, small town(s), no large cities. It's a different story in other places.

Everyone I know who was raised in Wyoming hated living in Wyoming (sans you).

However, this is duely noted; I know where you live, so expect a friendly simplicifolian knock on your door after the nukes drop and/or the north pole melts into silly puddy.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mangrove on September 29, 2016, 04:21:29 PM
Irrespective of how things go down, i'm pretty sure my main Mensch, Freud, knows what's gonna happen regardless as to how we design our new society: http://www.stephenhicks.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/FreudS-CIVILIZATION-AND-ITS-DISCONTENTS-text-final.pdf


Then there comes along a man by the name of Orwell and his Animal Farm (http://msxnet.org/orwell/animal_farm.pdf)...
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: nikshaz on September 29, 2016, 06:25:06 PM
Everyone I know who was raised in Wyoming hated living in Wyoming (sans you).


Everyone hates where they grow up, not speaking for all. They want to explore the world and some think they got the world by the nuts, Really family is all you really need.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: LIBERTYNY on September 29, 2016, 09:43:17 PM
Im insanely jellious of all you guys that get to live in rural area's,
   I spend 99% of my time in S NY Long island, where their is very little game to hunt and whats hear will disappear virtually overnight when things get 'bad'.
  Foraging is possible between the highways and subdivisions the best spots tend to be supperfund sites thow,  Besides with the massive population hear,   what is hear will not last a season.
  People steal my tomato's / corn / ect.  every time I turn around today,  Tomorrow . . .
  We do have the ocean and LI sound thow,  Still looking at the dirty dirty dirty water I would cry if I had to resort to that.

  My plan would be to lay low as long as my stock could sustain myself, and let the unprepared kill themselves of in the streets in the mean time, then make a run to my hunting land in Pa.

 When the music stops how americas citys may explode in violence (excellent reed)
    ---   https://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/bracken-when-the-music-stops-how-americas-cities-may-explode-in-violence/
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Ian Morris on September 29, 2016, 10:30:44 PM
RE: plantlight

In general, the libertarian excuse for war is that we universally recognize the right of self-defense and if this right is compounded or otherwise multiplied there must be some justification for a public self-defense.  Following along, this right (like any right in a free society) can be exchanged through a theory of assignment and agency.  Suppose that I have a right to collect apples from your orchard so I can do this myself or I can subcontract or assign this right to another, let’s say Pedro, who is my agent in exercising this right.
The libertarian idea is that because so many people have a right to self-defense that when aggregated there should be some vested ‘public’ right as well and that through agency (an army) we can effect these rights, specifically war. 

My own feelings on the matter is that this sort of argument is illogical and doesn’t survive scrutiny.
 
History or a modicum of reflection shows us that wars are never an extension or multiplication of self-defense.  Wars, even when waged on self-defense are disproportionality conducted by the poor who suffer the most on both sides, on behalf of the elites of each side who often have the most to lose but rarely if ever bear the price.

But Ian you dirty pirate, you just said through agency and assignment some individuals will have tons of Pedros where I must pick my own apples (war) so clearly libertarianism accepts that effects will be proportional.  We agree, I accept that many will have disproportionate resources with which to defend themselves, my problem is with the choice to employ self-defense in the first place.

Oh you clever swashbuckler!  Pro-war Libertarianism would have us surrender the personal choice to that of the collective!  A libertarian society should be the sum total of its peaceful and voluntary individual acts.  War, even in self-defense, subordinates these considerations to the collective, and leaves us with very difficult questions like;

Whom do we wage war against?
How much proportional force is necessary?
Is the threat imminent?
When can we safely declare cessation to hostilities?

In a pro-war libertarian situation these questions would not remain the sovereignty or choice of the individual but that of single commanding authority or worse (depending on your philosophy) that of a collective. 

Ian you are losing me you scoundrel, what if a collective a group of pro-war Libertarians decided to defend themselves collectively and each individual made that decision?

I would argue that this is highly unlikely and even collectively the above questions cannot be correctly answered without some suffering of individual choice or unwanted compromise.  Who chooses?  Can we get 5 people to agree or 100, what about unanimity?

Even more important I would argue that what happens to the individual that refuses to join in the exercise of this collective right and has not initiated force against the defender, thus triggering the right in the first place?

What if I dissent?
What if I offer moral support to the other side?
What if I remain neutral but still sell weapons and supplies to the enemy?
What if I remain neutral but refuse to supply the pro-war Libertarians?

The answers here are not hypothetical, just look to history how each of these groups are treated by the victor.  Answering these questions truthfully will undoubtable involve violations of core principles of Libertarian ideas, which is really just a long way to say why unlike some Libertarians, I personally do not believe there is justification for war, even in self-defense. 

Ian you are the Errol Flynn of my moral compass and while I believe you to be terribly naïve I value your gallant defense of your very unpopular opinion.

Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Roze on October 06, 2016, 02:06:06 PM
Is just me or this elections are entirely  corrupted?

I trully belive that Trump is just a joker to distract people from of all perverse things that Hillary did in the past.  All this is a pact to her win this election..  how can a presidential candidate proudly say that not paid taxes for years  or yell racial comments and yet expect to win?

The media on Europe just shows  the insane and lunatic  Trump and the super indefectible professional  Hillary that can lead this world to a great future...  just a puppets stage on the current circus that is our planet.


Dark days will come, thats why I have a greenhouse!  :P


Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: AcaciaAve on October 06, 2016, 08:36:18 PM
The "world" has already ended.
It is an utter disappointment, no summer blockbuster
Now we're naked
Washing our flesh in sin
The fuel of our precious cancer clogging our tanks with sugar

This tree of life bears bitter fruit.
And they're withered.
 Razed.
 The only truths left dying on the vine.
Before the orchard's set ablaze.
Black smoke from burning human crop.

Moving our bodies through great haphazard.
Beware.
Hide.
From yourself.
Be broken.
A single piece of something brilliant.
 It's part of a program to be a ruler, a victim, a man, a woman, a father, a daughter.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mangrove on October 07, 2016, 01:35:32 AM
The "world" has already ended.
It is an utter disappointment, no summer blockbuster
Now we're naked
Washing our flesh in sin
The fuel of our precious cancer clogging our tanks with sugar

This tree of life bears bitter fruit.
And they're withered.
 Razed.
 The only truths left dying on the vine.
Before the orchard's set ablaze.
Black smoke from burning human crop.

Moving our bodies through great haphazard.
Beware.
Hide.
From yourself.
Be broken.
A single piece of something brilliant.
 It's part of a program to be a ruler, a victim, a man, a woman, a father, a daughter.

WELCOME BACK, ACACIA AVE!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9sY-kwa6RE
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: fairdinkumseeds on October 07, 2016, 01:42:42 AM
Had a political minded prepper dude I met predict a black president followed by a female president vs moron election. Female winning.
Followed by war involving most of Europe and Asia with heavy AU and US involvement.
Long time ago, but the reason he gave and explanation about was so logical and sensible when you looked big picture.
Hairs on the back of my neck stood up, still do. lol.
Changed the was I look at things quite a bit, and we are due for a cull...
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mangrove on October 07, 2016, 04:37:20 AM
This is worth a good reading-through. (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzbtlcAsIeTnTlNmSnhOV010bHM/edit?pli=1)
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Roze on October 07, 2016, 11:22:05 AM
Do you guys belive the war in near?

 I mean, half world is already fighting to the other half but history tell us that every  economic recession of the past guided to a big war.. a destroy to rebuild  mentality focused on capitalism.

WWIII WARNING Third World War would be ‘extremely lethal and fast’ US Army chiefs reveal as they discuss taking out Russia or China

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1921630/third-world-war-would-be-extremely-lethal-and-fast-us-army-chiefs-reveal-as-they-discuss-taking-out-russia-or-china/
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: fairdinkumseeds on October 07, 2016, 02:01:02 PM
Hypothetically of course.
Personally, with the population as it is no one wants to use anything that would destroy viable farmland for years on end. No-one wins that game.
So that's nukes or conventional chemical weapons out.
But everyone's still greedy and wants what the other dudes have as per human nature.

I predict emp or water/viral attack if anything, but on a very large scale.
Not concerned about a ground offensive as its not cost effective so pretty unlikely, plus like to think in that case I would still fair better than the average dude due to location/paranoia/skills.
Not at all concerned about major China/Russia etc attacking US, as if they do Australia will get taken out straight up.
Too many major US bases here, I'd be too dead to worry about it.  :P

So yeah, emp/viral or water contamination/attack.
That's what I kinda reckon might happen and I give thought to from time to time.
Gonna happen one day I am sure, history tells us so.
Be interesting to be in the generation that sees it, or any other mass destruction/creation climax.
Story to tell the next generation, maybe they will get things right?

Or fast zombies, that would be cool to see too...



Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: plantlight on October 07, 2016, 02:05:14 PM
Do you guys belive the war in near?
Could be.  I really don't trust the simians in control of the serious weapons. :-\

I mean, half world is already fighting to the other half but history tell us that every  economic recession of the past guided to a big war.. a destroy to rebuild  mentality focused on capitalism.
I know that there is a popular attempt to blame war on capitalism but since war predates capitalism, I think the cause of war is something else. For those of us who despise war and hunger for true peace, it is essential to recognize the true cause.

It seems to me that war is based on blind lust for power and is ever present when rule is by force.  It began when the first simian picked up a club and used it to beat an opponent to death in order to establish the first government.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mangrove on October 07, 2016, 05:06:25 PM
Has anyone ever thought to chill out and read Plato's The Republic? He addresses all of these concerns very very well in that book. Orwell too. Power is us; power is everything; where there is none, power will fill. In order to assure one's own survival, he ought to know the moral pillars upon with his society is tied together between.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mangrove on October 07, 2016, 05:18:28 PM
Where is this thread headed to?
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: plantlight on October 07, 2016, 06:11:05 PM
Has anyone ever thought to chill out and read Plato's The Republic? He addresses all of these concerns very very well in that book. Orwell too. Power is us; power is everything; where there is none, power will fill. In order to assure one's own survival, he ought to know the moral pillars upon with his society is tied together between.
Haha!  Ah yes, a familiar story.  The wise selfless guardian/rulers rule for the good of society with the aid of enforcement actions provided by the noble auxiliary/warrior class.  That relieves all of the rest of us to devote all our time to production and not even think of such unpleasantries as ruling our own affairs. 

Plato's republic was written nearly 2400 years ago and in my opinion is at best a description of how top-down rule could be best imposed using available technology.  It's also the justification for most , if not all of the various governments on the planet today.  At worst, it is a plan to permanently enslave the working class for the ultimate benefit of the ruling class.

Orwell provided warning as to the dystopian possibilities of Plato's ideal government gone wrong. Neither provided a sustainable solution.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mangrove on October 07, 2016, 07:12:33 PM
Poo-Tee-Weet

Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: plantlight on October 07, 2016, 07:13:15 PM
Has anyone ever thought to chill out
Chilling out is an essential part of finding a personal solution.

  "Each one has to find his peace from within.
  And peace to be real must be unaffected by
  outside circumstances." -Mahatma Gandhi

The societal solution will go viral once it is found.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: plantlight on October 07, 2016, 07:20:22 PM
Poo-Tee-Weet
:)
So it goes

Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: MadPlanter on October 08, 2016, 01:07:29 PM
Are we really supposed to decide between these two dumbasses? My mind is continuously blown every time I even recognize this is happening. Too much conspiracy notions that far predate this election that at least half ass predicted an election like this....fucking scary...
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: plantlight on October 08, 2016, 05:32:19 PM
Perhaps we're to recognize that the system doesn't work and it's time for a new one.  Whatever that implies ??? :-\ :-X

But not violently, we know time and time again, much misery accompanies the violent solution.  It must be peaceful.  How about not voting for a start?  Voting only encourages them.

We'll probably see the libertarian vote with a larger percentage of the total.  For those who cannot bear withholding their vote, a libertarian vote would be another option.  The two party system seems to have run out of steam.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mangrove on October 08, 2016, 07:34:46 PM
I've said this everywhere else; I'll shout it out here,too:

VOTE FOR ME THIS UPCOMING NOVEMBER; I SUPPORT YOUR BELIEFS AND CONVICTIONS, AND HEREBY SWEAR TO KEEP THE PLANT KINGDOM UN-BANHAMMERED FOREVER-MORE!!!!
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mangrove on October 09, 2016, 12:08:55 AM
A vote which isn't for me is a vote wasted on someone else, just saying...
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: nobody on October 09, 2016, 10:47:05 AM
Voting has no effect what so ever on who is elected. The Electoral College pretty much guarantees most voters are disenfranchised. That is not including the corruption rampant in our voting system, DNC and RNC fraud, "malfunctioning" voting machines, DHS wishing to classify all voting procedures etc. The current system is beyond saving but dont think for one seond the "powers that be" will go quietly.



nobody
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mangrove on October 09, 2016, 05:54:52 PM
Voting has no effect what so ever on who is elected. The Electoral College pretty much guarantees most voters are disenfranchised. That is not including the corruption rampant in our voting system, DNC and RNC fraud, "malfunctioning" voting machines, DHS wishing to classify all voting procedures etc. The current system is beyond saving but dont think for one seond the "powers that be" will go quietly.



nobody

If one's vote doesn't really matter at all (according to the bullshitZIKA EC system plaguing the Land of the Free and The Home of The Whopper), then why not humor my campaign and cast it on me?
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mangrove on October 09, 2016, 05:56:04 PM
POO-TEE-WEET
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: fairdinkumseeds on December 03, 2016, 10:34:35 PM
Nobody said it best.
Voting for me is just 20mins-1.5hours wasted, that I could have spent in the garden or chilling out.
No-one in power is ever gonna be feeling my priorities are important, if they were they wouldn't be politicians in the first place, they would be in the garden chilling out too.

That said, Kanye2020?  ::)
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: BubbleCat on December 04, 2016, 02:33:25 AM
Voting DOES have an effect, the question for me is a different one: Is the effect desirable for the person who votes and is the action of voting and the goals in pursuit morally acceptable ?

I consider voting agressive, amongst many other things, none of them being cool.
People do vote because they do a) want a change and b) want a change through a system of power. So even if the vote is cast in favour of liberalization it still expresses consent or aproval towards the vote and governance. Most people seem (I do not know only suspect) vote out of intolerance, ego and drive to dominate, as they vote for figures or groups promising certain laws to be established or upheld. In essence most voters seek to have a third party force others to conform to their lifestyles by threats of violence or even actual violence. This is because no law demanding someone to do or not to do can be upheld without backing it by (ultimately fatal) violence / force, since a limit of force that can be used to uphold laws would mean the individual simply had to choose resistance that goes beyond that level to evade the law.
But even if some people vote hoping their vote will stop wars, will put an end to pointless laws that criminalize people and are enforced to the point where someone is murdered for the sake of the law the person does still run into the same moral trouble as outlined above: By voting for someone within the system of power (and therefore the system of power itself) the person is seeking to elect someone who at least wants to hold up certain (even though fewer) laws (those that outline the system of governance, the elections, the nation and state, borders...) which, as shown above, are imoral.
Also a vote is highly primitive, it is basically the theoretical simulation of a pub brawl. If a conflict of interest ocurred a primitive "solution" has always been to just get physical until one party can dictate the conditions. At some point people found out that a vote serves the same basic mechanism and has several advantages if the group to be voting is large ebough to be representative:
a) not everyone has to be at the pub at the right time
b) there will be no injuries or damages
c) everyone can participate with equal chance
d) only very few have to excert the force themselves
e) only those who do not agree with the result even if it is known already will be targets of force

He who votes seeks to rule but is cowardly enough to rely on someone else to take care of the violence necessary for ruling.

More flaws of votes: Women had to fight for their right to vote, people of african origin had to fight for the same right... why does it not confuse anyone that children appear to be the new "inferiors" and "subhumans" deprived of rights some people view as most basic: votes, self reliance, general freedom... seems not to disturb anyone that our systems treat children this way. How about foreigners ? Same story: Why should BC be allowed to "make the rules" in his country when Ian can not be parr of the decision ? Does BC have some very weird claim on land he actually has no claim whatsoever on ? BCs solution of course would be getting rid of "making" the rules along with the concept of domestic and foreign.

If one was to ask me how the world (as we know it) ends:
Creeping. A combination of George Orwells wildest dreams paired with ignorance, stupidity and arrogance slowly finding its way into peoples minds. An end might not exactly be what we expect, just a world that we would never choose or wamt to live in if it came all of a sudden, but the new world is creeping and only comes a step closer once we got used to the last step it came closer.

Plantlight got it correct: We want a peacefull world and we can not force a world without force and we can not use violence to get rid of violence, both would be contradictionary.
Many people get me wrong here:
What I am NOT saying is that a world without nations, borders, states, governance and so on is automatically an inherently peaceful world, by no way, it is still what the people in it make out of it.
What I AM saying is: I institutionalizing violence will guarantee a world with violence in it.
The subtle difference:
Not having institutionalized violence will at least give humanity a shot at being peacefull.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yZarW-7ivZo

Only flaw here: Democracy. I still havent came to understand why a system that puts one or very few people into power is absolutism or dictatorship but a system that is in favour of more people (sometimes but rarely even a real majority) is "democracy" and inherently just.
Title: Re: Likelihood of teotwawki...in your opinions
Post by: Mr. seeds on December 15, 2016, 05:37:34 PM
I haven't read everything; but I'll give in my 2 cents. I've contacted both the Trump administration and others like TYT and the Koch Brothers and Green party stuff talking a lot about peace. If we give each other peace now; as a world- we can both save this entire Earth (it takes time though) and colonize space. I think that some of the words I've given to say for example; the Kochs have been passed around to others who're rich; from corporations to just the random lobbyist. I based the things I told them off of a video about Hiawatha I once learned from. I also told them about T. Iboga and it's endangered status and things about poverty and about my dad. I believe that every person holds peace in their hearts; even killers or those who carry with them wrongs and faults/flaws of the past.

I'm trying to bride the gap a little with a union of reasoning; only one sharing of perspective at a time- from telling people they need to be better to their family and friends; neighbors, enemies, and competition; and to be more open minded; to trying to spark a renaissance Era using my gifted secret skills of sociopathy (i'm jokin'! lol). Call me crazy, call me stupid but I'm absolutely sure that there is so much more to hope for than we had just a few years ago.

"Pain, anger, fear, doom, corruption, hatred, revenge, loss, brokenness, choice; In, then let out. Something gained.

Happiness, wealth, love, peace, reason, sanity, bravery, courage, passion, intelligence, faith, endurance, vitality, vigor, creativity, worry, work, tears, blood, sweat, and confronting your fears; in, then let out. Something lost."

-Peace, love, reason, and liberty.