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[caguama]

Hello

Any information about germinating Virola seeds? GBA3? What type of substrate would be best? Would the use of spaghnum  moss be best, pure perlite or some other medium? Would you suggest washing with dilution of hydrogen peroxide?

Please share whatever you can about best practice. Thanks

[ONandONandON]

i've never seen virola seeds available, interested in finding some, but i don't know about germinating..
Thought i might theorize maybe trying ash water soak. Some seeds have a signal to sprout after fires.

1 Like Chicsa likes this.

[Chicsa]

i know a super legit source, but dunno how to germinate. pm me if u want me to try to get some for u

1 Like ONandONandON likes this.

[Bach]

I forget how I know this (getting too old dammit) but the seeds are eaten and dispersed by toucans, so perhaps a muriatic acid soak and a light scarification to emulate passing through a bird's gut? Also they tend to grow in low lying areas that can be moist if not actually boggy.

My one and only attempt I pronounced a failure after about six months. I kept the seeds in a container with moist to wet sphagnum moss with bottom heat. Did not do the acid soak or scarification though.

I had about four or five seeds. After a few months of no action I decided to peel off the outer seedcoat from one to see if it was still alive or rotten. It was alive, cotyledons and embryo looked fine. I placed the naked seed back in the container with it's compatriots and left it for the duration. A few months later I did the same thing with another. Same results. And the first one never rotted even though it had no seedcoat.

Fast forward a few more months and they finally started to rot. I don't know what the trigger for germination might be other than the acid soak/scarification.  They do have a reputation for being difficult to germinate, but someday someone is going to crack the code.

I know Psychotria seeds germinate much faster after passing through a bird's gut (thank you Mr. Mockingbird!) so the same might be the case here. Anybody have a pet toucan they can use to test out my theory?

Also see the thread below this one. Here's a link: http://sharetheseeds.me/forum/index.php?topic=5469.0

Who knows it might work.

[caguama]

Hey people. So I have access to a good number of seeds and have started the process of germinating. I began by doing some reading on some of the literature on virola seeds and reading about their germination processes.

Began by washing the seeds for about 5 minutes in running tap water, followed by a 10 minute soak in 1 part hydrogen peroxide: 10 part tap water to sterilize, followed by another wash in tap water.

Next, I made a 500ppm, 750ppm dilution of 90% GBA3 and a plain tap water overnight (12 hrs) soak. The intention is to have different seed preparations with a control in order to see variation in germination rates with different concentrations of GBA3 and with a control (tap water).

Next, I placed the seeds in a seed starter tray amd humidity dome with 128 cells. I placed a portion of the cells with sphagnum moss bedding with a top blanket of perlite and a portion with only pure perlite. The seed starter tray has a heating mat underneath in order to keep the seed starter tray and dome warm. Some research demonstrated that higher germination of V. Surimanensis was achieved at 86° F in a controlled environment.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[JayWise]

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2 Likes Mangrove and MorningDew like this.

[caguama]

According to a friend of mine that lives in the native habitat of Virola trees, the local birds often completely pick apart the seeds and destroy any chance of a viable seed passing through a local birds digestive system and later germinating. Although, I have had a look at some of the literature that talks about toucans and other birds eating the fruits from these trees. I'm not sure what to make of these conflicting perspectives.

Apparently the seeds that are able to germinate, do so under the forest canopy and under covering of leaves and other organic matter. So it seems that they don't need much light to get the process started. I am tempted to try an experiment of scarification and a soak in a acidic solution next time around.

[Bach]

I kept mine uncovered on a bed of sphagnum under flourescent light on a 12/12 schedule. Perhaps the light acted to inhibit germination?

It's not too late to try the acid scarification on some of the seeds you've already started. They seem to stay viable for a long time even if we haven't figured out how to break dormancy.

Definitely interested in what you come up with caguama.

1 Like caguama likes this.

[caguama]

I kept mine uncovered on a bed of sphagnum under flourescent light on a 12/12 schedule. Perhaps the light acted to inhibit germination?

It's not too late to try the acid scarification on some of the seeds you've already started. They seen to stay viable for a long time even if we haven't figured out how to break dormancy.

Definitely interested in what you come up with caguama.

Yes, I am interested in testing out scarification and acid soaking. The seeds have two different types of coatings. One of them is a reddish, waxy covering i have read in literature referred to as "aril". Not sure if i misread that part. Next is the harder seed coating that is not difficult to crack and part open. A medium strength squeeze with the thumb and finger cracks this seed coating.

What dilution of muriatic acid would be else? I wouldnt want for the seeds to be destroyed by the acid soak either. And would it be wise to tap water wash and then soak in GBA3?

Also what can you interpret about the soil type that they normally germinate in, given that they are in soil with plenty of organic matter and possibly well draining? Is it more acidic soil?

Thanks,
Caguama

[Bach]

I would remove the aril completely, that's the part the toucans are after. Leave the hard seedcoat though. I think it survives the trek through the bird's intestinal system.

I'm sure parrots and other birds can destroy the seeds altogether before eating them but toucans with their oversize bills aren't equppied to do anything but eat them whole.

You could try removing the hard seedcoat and then treat with GBA just as an experiment.

I imagine you could dilute the muriatic acid maybe by about half and soak for five or ten minutes then rinse thoroughly. Hopefully it inactives any germination inhibitors, but treating with GBA might be a good thing too. This of course would be with the seedcoat still on. I wouldn't treat the naked seeds that way.

Sounds like you have a lot of seeds to treat lots of different ways.   

As a broad guess I would think that the surface of the soil is covered with litter like you described earlier but underneath I would suspect laterite clay. Most rainforest areas have very little topsoil  since the nutrients get sucked up into the canopy very quickly. (This is why tropical soils are so poor for grazing cattle, the soil doesn't really carry the nutrients, they're all up in the canopy.)

That said most plants are pretty adaptable to their soil needs so I wouldn't worry about it too much except perhaps to make sure there is lots of iron available. Laterite is very rich in iron and I have grown a few tropicals that are prone to iron deficiency if not grown in high-iron soil. 

[Chicsa]

I would remove the aril completely, that's the part the toucans are after. Leave the hard seedcoat though. I think it survives the trek through the bird's intestinal system.

I'm sure parrots and other birds can destroy the seeds altogether before eating them but toucans with their oversize bills aren't equppied to do anything but eat them whole.

You could try removing the hard seedcoat and then treat with GBA just as an experiment.

I imagine you could dilute the muriatic acid maybe by about half and soak for five or ten minutes then rinse thoroughly. Hopefully it inactives any germination inhibitors, but treating with GBA might be a good thing too. This of course would be with the seedcoat still on. I wouldn't treat the naked seeds that way.

Sounds like you have a lot of seeds to treat lots of different ways.   

As a broad guess I would think that the surface of the soil is covered with litter like you described earlier but underneath I would suspect laterite clay. Most rainforest areas have very little topsoil  since the nutrients get sucked up into the canopy very quickly. (This is why tropical soils are so poor for grazing cattle, the soil doesn't really carry the nutrients.)

That said most plants are pretty adaptable to their soil needs so I wouldn't worry about it too much except perhaps to make sure there is lots of iron available. Laterite is very rich in iron and I have grown a few tropicals that are prone to iron deficiency if not grown in high-iron soil.

Now i'm tempted to try to get a buncha seeds and split em between us, see what we can do I'll see if they are affordable enough to get a bunch.

[caguama]

I would remove the aril completely, that's the part the toucans are after. Leave the hard seedcoat though. I think it survives the trek through the bird's intestinal system.

I'm sure parrots and other birds can destroy the seeds altogether before eating them but toucans with their oversize bills aren't equppied to do anything but eat them whole.

You could try removing the hard seedcoat and then treat with GBA just as an experiment.

I imagine you could dilute the muriatic acid maybe by about half and soak for five or ten minutes then rinse thoroughly. Hopefully it inactives any germination inhibitors, but treating with GBA might be a good thing too. This of course would be with the seedcoat still on. I wouldn't treat the naked seeds that way.

Sounds like you have a lot of seeds to treat lots of different ways.   

As a broad guess I would think that the surface of the soil is covered with litter like you described earlier but underneath I would suspect laterite clay. Most rainforest areas have very little topsoil  since the nutrients get sucked up into the canopy very quickly. (This is why tropical soils are so poor for grazing cattle, the soil doesn't really carry the nutrients.)

That said most plants are pretty adaptable to their soil needs so I wouldn't worry about it too much except perhaps to make sure there is lots of iron available. Laterite is very rich in iron and I have grown a few tropicals that are prone to iron deficiency if not grown in high-iron soil.

Thank you for that thoughtful response about the differences in bird species and beak sizes. It makes some sense that the larger beak of the toucan would make complete destruction of the seed a more difficult task.

You would recommend completely removing the aril portion? Do you think it could contribute to seed rot? It seems to be very fatty and waxy when moistened...

I think I will try removing the seed coat from some of them and soaking in a 500ppm solution of GBA3.

Thank you for the tidbit on the soil type that you think this area may have. I don't know much about soil types and thus won't really worry about this much. I appreciate the insights Bach.

[caguama]

Hey everyone, thus far I have not been successful with the efforts I described above. I sent out virola seeds to various members here in hopes of germinating these stubborn seeds.
I'll have more detailed write up soon about my new efforts and tek I am currently using.

[DarkPines]

I just found this article. I had to translate it though. But there results are very interesting, and some of the discussion at the end is very hepful. Im going to consider a lot of this.

One thing that made sense was that they pointed out how it grows in a kind of swampy environment where water is present the majority of the seeds lives, prolonging their life. Also that brought to mind swamp water is a bunch of acidic, full of life, decaying plant matter shit lol. Ive got a few ideas rummaging around in my head right now with this, with this link in consideration. Im about to plant a few of these possibly in a day or two. Ive got a V. theidora, and the V. surinamensis to try with. 6 seeds total. 4 of the T, and 2 of the S. They feel considerably heavy as well, not that I know what afresh one feels like to compare it to anyway, but hey, im trying to be optimistic lol 

lets do it!
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0100-67622007000100005

[Botanicus]

I would remove the aril completely, that's the part the toucans are after. Leave the hard seedcoat though. I think it survives the trek through the bird's intestinal system.

I'm sure parrots and other birds can destroy the seeds altogether before eating them but toucans with their oversize bills aren't equppied to do anything but eat them whole.

You could try removing the hard seedcoat and then treat with GBA just as an experiment.

I imagine you could dilute the muriatic acid maybe by about half and soak for five or ten minutes then rinse thoroughly. Hopefully it inactives any germination inhibitors, but treating with GBA might be a good thing too. This of course would be with the seedcoat still on. I wouldn't treat the naked seeds that way.

Sounds like you have a lot of seeds to treat lots of different ways.   

As a broad guess I would think that the surface of the soil is covered with litter like you described earlier but underneath I would suspect laterite clay. Most rainforest areas have very little topsoil  since the nutrients get sucked up into the canopy very quickly. (This is why tropical soils are so poor for grazing cattle, the soil doesn't really carry the nutrients.)

That said most plants are pretty adaptable to their soil needs so I wouldn't worry about it too much except perhaps to make sure there is lots of iron available. Laterite is very rich in iron and I have grown a few tropicals that are prone to iron deficiency if not grown in high-iron soil.

Thank you for that thoughtful response about the differences in bird species and beak sizes. It makes some sense that the larger beak of the toucan would make complete destruction of the seed a more difficult task.

You would recommend completely removing the aril portion? Do you think it could contribute to seed rot? It seems to be very fatty and waxy when moistened...

I think I will try removing the seed coat from some of them and soaking in a 500ppm solution of GBA3.

Thank you for the tidbit on the soil type that you think this area may have. I don't know much about soil types and thus won't really worry about this much. I appreciate the insights Bach.

I've seen toucans eating Virola in Panama, and it seems that they would most often just remove the aril and discard the husk & seed, as the fruit splits open at maturity. They must swallow some seeds as they are apparently are important dispersal agents for the species.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316219447_Toucans_Ramphastos_ambiguus_facilitate_resilience_against_seed_dispersal_limitation_to_a_large-seeded_tree_Virola_surinamensis_in_a_human-modified_landscape