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Author Topic: Defend Kratom in NC  (Read 12981 times)

nobody

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Defend Kratom in NC
« on: June 05, 2016, 03:38:13 AM »

North Carolina seems to be jumping on the prohibition band wagon. SB380 - http://www.ncleg.net/Applications/BillLookUp/LoadBillDocument.aspx?SessionCode=2015&DocNum=7154&SeqNum=0

Remember, this year at the polls Senator Tom Mcinnis needs to be voted out.

Facebook link for AKA NC chapter
https://www.facebook.com/North-Carolina-AKA-for-Kratom-790613377723792/?fref=ts&__mref=message_bubble

nobody
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Mangrove

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Re: Defend Kratom in NC
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2016, 05:51:01 AM »

Any of the following opium derivatives, including their salts, isomers...
...x. Mitragynine
y. 7-HO-Mitragynine

specific chemical designation: OPIUM DERIVATIVES. NOT OPIOID RECEPTOR AGONISTS. MITRAGYNINE AND 7-HO-MITRAGYNINE ARE NOT OPIUM DERIVATIVES IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM; THEY JUST ACT IN A SIMILAR MANNER AS OPIUM DERIVATIVES DO ON OPIATE RECEPTORS, WHICH THE BILL DOES NOT MENTION, AS IT LISTS OPIUM [read: morphinian skeleton] derivatives.

Could this logic be used to logjam one's way around this stupid law regarding kratom, especially since said chemicals are much more related to tryptamines than morphinians/opium-derived drugs? Ian, I eagerly await your reply.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 03:31:16 AM by Mangrove »
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Ian Morris

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Re: Defend Kratom in NC
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2016, 06:01:20 AM »

We need to start a new thread.  Let me digest some of this.
 I have been thinking of an ethnogenic lobby for a while and I am currently reaching out to these guys, http://www.iceers.org/ to see where it stands.
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danzick

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Re: Defend Kratom in NC
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2016, 11:34:54 PM »

The bill did not pass because the government officials could not come to a consensus on the law so it was pushed off another year.

Now would be the time to send some well-crafted letters to the State senators.  Emphasizing regulation versus prohibition, and with exceptions for ornamental cultivation.  Better to be proactive than wait for a bil to be pending again.
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Mangrove

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Re: Defend Kratom in NC
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2016, 12:35:42 AM »

Any of the following opium derivatives, including their salts, isomers...
...x. Mitragynine
y. 7-HO-Mitragynine

specific chemical designation: OPIUM DERIVATIVES. NOT OPIOID RECEPTOR AGONISTS. MITRAGYNINE AND 7-HO-MITRAGYNINE ARE NOT OPIUM DERIVATIVES IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM; THEY JUST ACT IN A SIMILAR MANNER AS OPIUM DERIVATIVES DO ON OPIATE RECEPTORS, WHICH THE BILL DOES NOT MENTION, AS IT LISTS OPIUM derivatives.

Could this logic be used to logjam one's way around this stupid law regarding kratom, especially since said chemicals are much more related to tryptamines than morphinians/opium-derived drugs? Ian, I eagerly await your reply.

Soo

This beautiful dirty picture (& selective opioid receptor agonist containing both indole and morphinian skeletons) might just be the downfall of my argument that mitragynine & 7-HO-mitragynine ARE not opium derivatives...
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LIBERTYNY

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Re: Defend Kratom in NC
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2016, 04:37:30 AM »

You have to rember that governments often define their own terms ! !

The only definition in a law dictionary of "Derivatives' I could find has to do with monetary, But im guessing a derivative can be more than a directly physicaly composed compound
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danzick

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Re: Defend Kratom in NC
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2016, 05:47:56 AM »

The language of the bill must have been written by a lawyer (no offense Ian  :) ) and not someone with a clue about chemistry.  First of all, opium isn't a compound.  It's a crude mixture of compounds classed as "opioids" because they can be isolated or derived from opium.  Therefore, morphine is an opium derivative because it's isolated from opium.  Heroin, oxycodone, hydrocodone and all the myriad of semi-synthetic opiates would be opium derivatives because the precursors for their synthesis come from crude opium.  As far as I know, mitragynine and 7-HO-mitragynine are not found in opium, and I don't know if they can be derived from and opium-based precursor via synthesis.  So the "opium derivative" language is faulty.  As mangrove pointed out, it's as if the author has confused "opium derivative" with "opioid receptor agonist" .

It may all be a mute point, as the compounds mitragynine and 7-HO-mitragynine are specifically listed.

Another huge waste of tax payer dollars chasing a paper dragon.
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Ian Morris

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Re: Defend Kratom in NC
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2016, 05:24:33 PM »

Apparently, the Olde North State of North Carolina is hell bent on snatching the mantle of shame and ridicule from Florida and making us the national mockery the Sunshine State has enjoyed for the past few years.  Sorry, Floridian seeders, just an observation from the HB2 shit storm and beyond.

Like most government intervention, the NC Senate attempt to criminalize Kratom, is born of absolute ignorance and realized in the most ham-fisted arbitrary manner possible.  My personal thoughts on the role of government aside, this is a pretty important issue that needs to be addressed.  No plant should be criminalized.
 
Everyone in my area has seen handmade signs advertising Kratom.  They generally focus on pain relief and addiction mitigation and while I confess I have never called and ordered any, they are EVERYWHERE.  Seeing them makes me smile.  They make me smile because I appreciate this type of relentless hustle and I know that even more people will find pain relief and addiction mitigation from a powerful plant healer. 

1st – THE IGNORANCE –
As previously noted, Kratom is not derived from opium, the active constituents are indole alkaloids.  However, I will concede that Kratom would fit the definition of opioid, in that it acts on one or more of the nervous system’s opioid receptors. 

With this in mind, the existing language of the statute is ignorant, in that it criminalizes, “Any of the following opium derivatives” and then proceeded to list natural and synthetic opioids, many of which are not derived from opium at all. 

 I realize this point is pedantic but it underscores a fundamental lack of awareness when drafting legislation that affects so many people.  Do better research.  Craft better legislation.

2nd – THE HAMFIST-
First term senator, conservative small business owner Tom McInnis appears to favor “common sense legislation.”  Please indulge me for a minute, what exactly is common sense legislation?  Is that the law forcing me at the barrel of a gun to wear a seat belt while driving on the public roads of my state?  What about the ban on unpasteurized milk?  Is it legislation so common sense that any moron should be able to perceive the ‘right’ thing to do and act accordingly?  If that is the case, we should know better than to legislate, enforced by the underlying threat of violence, behavior that is common sense in the first place.  Presumably people who use this term must also distinguish uncommon senseless legislation, which I would argue is enforcing things that any moron should be able to ascertain as ‘right’.  It is an illogical argument, better served up to the slobbering constituent that is convinced the other side is full of “low information voters”.
 
However, Senator McInnis, has spent his first year giving us all sorts of common sense legislation, as the primary sponsor of nine bills and co-sponsor of nearly seventy more.  I am not sure if the NC legislature lacked common sense before but we can thank Senator McInnis for such gems as the School Safety Act, a law that will require registered sex offenders to provide written notice to community colleges prior to attending and prohibit the sex offender from attending any “early college programs”.  I guess it is safe to assume that recent high school graduates, while capable of military service and voting, need extra protection from sex offenders.  I think it also makes a case for the scarlet letter but I am digressing here. 

The truly in artful contribution of Senator McInnis is the SB830, Add Kratom to Controlled Substance List.  I could go on here with the tried and true arguments against prohibition and the overwhelming anecdotal evidence that Kratom is effective at mitigating opioid withdrawal, but I won’t because nothing illustrates the ham-fisted approach of this bill better than Senator McInnis himself, "I believe this has the potential of the next greatest epidemic."

Scary stuff, I mean we can’t have another epidemic like the prescription drug abuse currently gripping our Nation.  No sir, stop this epidemic in its tracks!  This would almost seem reasonable if Senator McInnis wasn’t sounding the claxon because of, "Twenty-three bodies they’ve had on the slab over there have tested positive for kratom,".  Twenty three bodies, over a six year period in the State coroner’s office.  ***At this point I am doing my best Lancaster, SC accent and pulling a hanky from my seersucker to fend off the vapors, real Senator Lindsey Graham style.***  “oh my word, think of the chilren!”

Twenty three dead bodies is a three day weekend in Chicago and this guy is crying epidemic.  Look I realize life is precious but this type of sound the alarm doomsaying is tiresome and unhelpful.  It is the precise tool of governance that elicits knee-jerk reactions.

Continuing with his chicken little routine, Senator McInnis educated his colleagues, "We don't know where it's produced, how it's produced, what other chemical attitudes are in it," McInnis said. "It's sold in beautiful, bright packages with sexy names with no limit to quality, quantity, or age. Easily available to children, sold on the streets, convenience stores and over the internet."  This may be 100% true.  We have to credit the Senator for his hard work here and I think this is all worthy of consideration, however criminalizing Kratom will have absolutely zero effect on these important considerations.

In fact, making Kratom illegal will just mean more uncertainty from the buyer as to the origin of the plant material or its chemical composition.  If DARE taught me one thing (and be honest one thing is a stretch) it is that drug dealers love to give free drugs to kids.  Criminalizing Kratom means every playground in NC is going to have some sketchy Kratom dealer giving out grams to children.  There he is, next to the man giving out LSD laced stickers!

Prohibition has the opposite effect, we all know this Senator McInnis.

Now to close with something strong, the words of Senator McInnis himself, “My pet peeve is that in both Washington and Raleigh, we have given knee jerk reactions to problems that have created bigger problems that create unintentional consequences. When we create a new law, we need to understand what will be the end result to the masses.”  So there you have it folks, common sense legislation really means a knee jerk reaction that will drive a market underground and at the same time criminalize citizens who dare to wean themselves from opiates.

Give Senator McInnis a call or email and help him figure this thing out;
(919) 733-5953
Tom.McInnis@ncleg.net
https://www.facebook.com/Tom-McInnis-NC-State-Senate-658238950913695/
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Frog Pajamas

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Re: Defend Kratom in NC
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2016, 09:44:16 PM »

I sent him and the senator for my district (modified as necessary) this email:

Dear Senator McKinnis:

I am writing to you as a concerned citizen in North Carolina. I have recently become aware of the Senate bill you are sponsoring to add mitragyna speciosa (kratom) to the list of scheduled substances in North Carolina.

We are in the midst of a nationwide opiate crisis, and removing one of the most valuable and effective tools available to treat addiction is a tremendously counterproductive measure. Kratom effectively alleviates withdrawal symptoms to allow opiate addicts to transition off opiates, including methadone treatment, without depressing respiratory function. It also effectively combats pain for people who have long-term pain and do not wish to suffer addiction to prescription pain killers.

We should be working to help our state's addicts get back to productive, healthy lives, not removing tools to help them achieve that goal. Addiction has many faces, and these people struggling through opiate addiction are our fellow citizens and community- someone's family, friends, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters.

Please reconsider your support for this detrimental measure. Let's work to help those in our community who are struggling, not compound the social and individual toll opiate addiction has on lives, families, and communities.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 09:53:15 PM by Frog Pajamas »
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danzick

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Re: Defend Kratom in NC
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2016, 10:28:06 PM »

Great letter.   :)
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Frog Pajamas

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Re: Defend Kratom in NC
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2016, 12:18:25 AM »

I split everything from nobody's post about the NC bill off the Florida thread and merged them here, so all the thoughts and links are in one place.  :)
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Mangrove

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Re: Defend Kratom in NC
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2016, 03:33:41 AM »

Apparently, the Olde North State of North Carolina is hell bent on snatching the mantle of shame and ridicule from Florida and making us the national mockery the Sunshine State has enjoyed for the past few years.  Sorry, Floridian seeders, just an observation from the HB2 shit storm and beyond.

Like most government intervention, the NC Senate attempt to criminalize Kratom, is born of absolute ignorance and realized in the most ham-fisted arbitrary manner possible.  My personal thoughts on the role of government aside, this is a pretty important issue that needs to be addressed.  No plant should be criminalized.
 
Everyone in my area has seen handmade signs advertising Kratom.  They generally focus on pain relief and addiction mitigation and while I confess I have never called and ordered any, they are EVERYWHERE.  Seeing them makes me smile.  They make me smile because I appreciate this type of relentless hustle and I know that even more people will find pain relief and addiction mitigation from a powerful plant healer. 

1st – THE IGNORANCE –
As previously noted, Kratom is not derived from opium, the active constituents are indole alkaloids.  However, I will concede that Kratom would fit the definition of opioid, in that it acts on one or more of the nervous system’s opioid receptors. 

With this in mind, the existing language of the statute is ignorant, in that it criminalizes, “Any of the following opium derivatives” and then proceeded to list natural and synthetic opioids, many of which are not derived from opium at all. 

 I realize this point is pedantic but it underscores a fundamental lack of awareness when drafting legislation that affects so many people.  Do better research.  Craft better legislation.

2nd – THE HAMFIST-
First term senator, conservative small business owner Tom McInnis appears to favor “common sense legislation.”  Please indulge me for a minute, what exactly is common sense legislation?  Is that the law forcing me at the barrel of a gun to wear a seat belt while driving on the public roads of my state?  What about the ban on unpasteurized milk?  Is it legislation so common sense that any moron should be able to perceive the ‘right’ thing to do and act accordingly?  If that is the case, we should know better than to legislate, enforced by the underlying threat of violence, behavior that is common sense in the first place.  Presumably people who use this term must also distinguish uncommon senseless legislation, which I would argue is enforcing things that any moron should be able to ascertain as ‘right’.  It is an illogical argument, better served up to the slobbering constituent that is convinced the other side is full of “low information voters”.
 
However, Senator McInnis, has spent his first year giving us all sorts of common sense legislation, as the primary sponsor of nine bills and co-sponsor of nearly seventy more.  I am not sure if the NC legislature lacked common sense before but we can thank Senator McInnis for such gems as the School Safety Act, a law that will require registered sex offenders to provide written notice to community colleges prior to attending and prohibit the sex offender from attending any “early college programs”.  I guess it is safe to assume that recent high school graduates, while capable of military service and voting, need extra protection from sex offenders.  I think it also makes a case for the scarlet letter but I am digressing here. 

The truly in artful contribution of Senator McInnis is the SB830, Add Kratom to Controlled Substance List.  I could go on here with the tried and true arguments against prohibition and the overwhelming anecdotal evidence that Kratom is effective at mitigating opioid withdrawal, but I won’t because nothing illustrates the ham-fisted approach of this bill better than Senator McInnis himself, "I believe this has the potential of the next greatest epidemic."

Scary stuff, I mean we can’t have another epidemic like the prescription drug abuse currently gripping our Nation.  No sir, stop this epidemic in its tracks!  This would almost seem reasonable if Senator McInnis wasn’t sounding the claxon because of, "Twenty-three bodies they’ve had on the slab over there have tested positive for kratom,".  Twenty three bodies, over a six year period in the State coroner’s office.  ***At this point I am doing my best Lancaster, SC accent and pulling a hanky from my seersucker to fend off the vapors, real Senator Lindsey Graham style.***  “oh my word, think of the chilren!”

Twenty three dead bodies is a three day weekend in Chicago and this guy is crying epidemic.  Look I realize life is precious but this type of sound the alarm doomsaying is tiresome and unhelpful.  It is the precise tool of governance that elicits knee-jerk reactions.

Continuing with his chicken little routine, Senator McInnis educated his colleagues, "We don't know where it's produced, how it's produced, what other chemical attitudes are in it," McInnis said. "It's sold in beautiful, bright packages with sexy names with no limit to quality, quantity, or age. Easily available to children, sold on the streets, convenience stores and over the internet."  This may be 100% true.  We have to credit the Senator for his hard work here and I think this is all worthy of consideration, however criminalizing Kratom will have absolutely zero effect on these important considerations.

In fact, making Kratom illegal will just mean more uncertainty from the buyer as to the origin of the plant material or its chemical composition.  If DARE taught me one thing (and be honest one thing is a stretch) it is that drug dealers love to give free drugs to kids.  Criminalizing Kratom means every playground in NC is going to have some sketchy Kratom dealer giving out grams to children.  There he is, next to the man giving out LSD laced stickers!

Prohibition has the opposite effect, we all know this Senator McInnis.

Now to close with something strong, the words of Senator McInnis himself, “My pet peeve is that in both Washington and Raleigh, we have given knee jerk reactions to problems that have created bigger problems that create unintentional consequences. When we create a new law, we need to understand what will be the end result to the masses.”  So there you have it folks, common sense legislation really means a knee jerk reaction that will drive a market underground and at the same time criminalize citizens who dare to wean themselves from opiates.

Give Senator McInnis a call or email and help him figure this thing out;
(919) 733-5953
Tom.McInnis@ncleg.net
https://www.facebook.com/Tom-McInnis-NC-State-Senate-658238950913695/

Send this off for submission as an op-ed to every major/local/statewide newspaper you can. Please.
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