Share The Seeds
Gardening Area => Crossbreeding and Hybridisation => Topic started by: hereje on September 19, 2013, 03:50:47 PM
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So i came across some sodium azide the other day and its a known powerful mutagen so next spring
im wanting to experiment with forced mutations of plants - im not quite sure how or when to apply
and in what ammounts - if anyone here ever experimented with mutagens in the past or could offer
any advice id greatly appreciate it
Just like to add that i understand sodium azide is explosive, poisonous, cause irritation and has
many health risks but i do have all the proper equipment for dealing with these kinds of materials
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What sort of mutations were you hoping to bring about with sodium azide? Which plants were you wanting to mutate? I've had zero experience with doing what you're planning but it sounds interesting.
A quick wiki of the compound shows it's water soluble (41g/100ml at 15°C), perhaps you could dilute it into the water you use for your plants, how diluted I haven't a clue, perhaps when you start off you could vary the amount for each plant to see if higher amounts cause different effects vs. very dilute amounts?
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Sodium Azide? i never heard about this before, what we can expect the use of this chemical?
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TBM - I have never played with mutagens in the past so i want to experiment in general - chances are
that my first experiemnts will be on clovers from a previous crossbreeding run because i
have 50k+ seeds on hand they germinate crazy easy grow fast and i wont miss much if i kill a few hundred lol
Olyd88 -I guess i can try to explain a little bit but im am NOT very knoledgable on this subject myself
Theres a few kinds of ways to change a plants traits crossbreeding - selective breeding - natural mutations - radiation treatment - and mutagens
Mutagens do the same thing as zapping a seed or plant with radiation only in a chemical way
each different mutagen targets the gene in a different way
Assumably when using mutagens i understand that when applied to the plant the offspring
will be mutated in some random way shape or form - examples one could lookup would be
geneticaly altered crops that are shorter,taller,more fruitful, unique colors exc...
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I would like to apply this to some cactus seeds.
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New Wisdom - Im pretth sure it would be applied to the parent plant to cause birth defects so to speak
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chances are
that my first experiemnts will be on clovers
Perhaps they'll mutate to produce more 4 leaf clovers, or maybe even 5-6 leaf clovers :)
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You can't just apply it to the seeds to cause mutations? I thought that is how it works.
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TBM - thats what i crossbred them for in the firat place :) they produce four leaf clovers
quite often - hoping the mutagens make different color flowers or a giant strain or maby 5-6 leaf clovers
New wisdom - it may be possible but i know very little about the subject - with any luck this time next year
ill have a lot more information
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Sweet, I've heard of people treating seeds with radiation or mutagens to cause mutations.
I may try this with some trichocereus and lophophora. I'll set them to the side and have them marked and then graft a few. See what happens.
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I have to agree clovers do produce 4 leaf clovers more often than most people think, last year I ended up taking a bet with someone to prove how common they are (they claimed there'd only be like 1-3 4 leaf clovers in an acre), ended up finding 20-30 in a 1/3 acre backyard :D I've only ever found two 5 leaf clovers, never found any with more than 5
Maybe it'll mutate the shape of the individual leaves to something drastically different
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Tbm - my strain of clovers produces a lot more 4-leaf than wild and every once in a while a five leafer :)
~just for the records the clovers i have are triditional
crossbreeding (the feather and scissors kind)
New wisdom - if its anything like radiation treatment of seeds it should kill most of the seeds so dont
try it with hard to get seeds
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Nice 8)
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Cool stuff. I'll be curious to see how it turns out. I wouldn't mind trying to make myself some teenage mutant ninja cacti one day.
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Cool stuff. I'll be curious to see how it turns out. I wouldn't mind trying to make myself some teenage mutant ninja cacti one day.
LOL, i guess we should wait for someone to try this , but to me, i'm not supporting much the idea of using this chemical to exploit the plants natural growth, I thought that someone should do this with proper knowledge to avoid 'unwanted' mutation to happen. But this is only my opinion, the rest is up to us.
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I think this chemical has potential. Make sure to let us know when you start experimenting. I can't wait to hear the results. Please be careful with it though.It is HIGHLY TOXIC/FATAL though skin absorption. Wear gloves, a respirator, goggles and a chem suit when you handle it.
Here is a link to the chemicals MSDS- http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/MSDS/MSDS/DisplayMSDSPage.do?country=US&language=en&productNumber=438456&brand=ALDRICH&PageToGoToURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sigmaaldrich.com%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct%2Faldrich%2F438456%3Flang%3Den
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There are dozens of mutagen chemicals available i just stumbled upon thisone so thats why im going to use it
if i find a good substitute between now and march ill probly go with that insted - also i used to deal with explosives
a fair bit and i currently work in a steel mill around some mean stuff so ive been trained with hazardous chemicals
although accidents can happen so if i randomly disappear around march or april you know what happened :) lol
just kidding :) you would be surprised at the extreme caution i use around dangerous chemicals
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Haha! Well, it needed to be said, ya know? Its good that you have that experience. Others may not though and might think about doing similar experiments. I was going to buy some to play around with until I read the MSDS. Scary stuff.
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Keep in mind that there are a lot of chemicals that have mutagen properties - im sure if you were interested
with a little research you could find a fairly safe and cheap alternitive
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I've worked with sodium azide before, preparing mobile phase for HPLC.
You'd need to dissolve it in deionized (or distilled) water before experimenting with it, and please wear gloves.
Its properties are similar to sodium cyanide.
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Next March, Hereje I s going to win the POTM because he'll have mutated himself, turned green w/ a full head of 4 leaf clover hair :D
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Rofl thats a good possibility but i have access to a professional fumehood and glove box at work and i plan to premix everything in a sealed container before application so there will be an extremely low chance i will come into contact with
even trace ammounts of chemicals
On a side note im looking for flowers that germinate and reach fruiting stag fast so i can run a lot of generations through as quickly as possible
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Lots of blokes up in FNQ got leukemia and had a much greater risk of dying early from stroke/ aneurism in their 30-40 after playing around with high doses of an insecticidal mutagen, trying to get freaky potent, yet huge dope in the 80's. A whole generation of dope growers idiot sons were soaking seeds with bare hands.
Or so the story goes, bit before my time but it seems to be a really common story among the older farmers who used to be slightly dodgy back in the day.....
They all know someone you died young or horrible after playing around with that stuff.
Its this thick yellow stuff that they banned they all talk about, but can't remember the name right now?
Huge mutation rates AND yet a very high plant survival rate.
They still use it on bananas for beetle borer(as nothing else works as well)and all the older growers all have a stockpile.
They never get the young guys or backpackers spraying it as it eventually kills ya.
The sprayers are nearly always lazy sick older alcoholics, and they only work contract/cash.
I have never seen a contract sprayer over 45......
They never last that long was always the joke, but after a few years working bananas, there is definitely some truth to it.
Cell mutation bro, be extra extra extra careful.