Share The Seeds
Gardening Area => Growing questions and answers => Topic started by: marshmellow on July 11, 2014, 03:33:19 AM
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Itst the only Psychotria viridis i have that's flowering, will the seeds be viable?
Thanks
Unfortunately, you have P. alba, not viridis. They have different infloresence structures.
Updated title of tread, with Marshmellow's permission, to reflect the identification discussion further down. Please feel free to post pictures, identifying traits, or anything you find useful in the identification of viridis vs. alba
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If it produces berries I would guess they'd be good. Only one way to find out.
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Beautiful flowers. The flowers are pollinated by insects, and you only need a single plant to get viable berries. Unfortunately, you have P. alba, not viridis. They have different infloresence structures.
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How can you tell, so I don't get the wrong one again? I've got a dozen of them rooter from this plant.
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There are several ways to tell, the easiest being their inflorescence type. However, P. viridis usually takes a few years to flower while alba will often flower its first year. The base of the leaf margin and petiole length is also different. Also, alba lacks the characteristic dolmatia that often shows up on the underside of viridis leaves. I'll find some photos to show later.
A lot of vendors sold alba as viridis, so there's a fair amount of confusion out there about this species. I also grew alba for acouple of years thinking it was viridis. :(
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Well I wanted an alba anyways thank you for all the help
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I finally remembered to take a picture of P. viridis showing the dolmatia on the underside of the leaves. Not all of the leaves have these, but P. alba leaves never have them. Look at the appendages coming off of the center vein....
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-N9cu4lSEpDY/U8W2GXlh37I/AAAAAAAAPvM/Lga0NSRnr-s/w437-h583-no/IMG_20140715_181440.jpg)
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Mr. Onion,
What are your thoughts on this guide to distinction?
http://worldseedsupply.org/blog/?p=228
Although psychotria viridis and psychotria alba do look very much alike at first glance, when you consider some key features, it should be very easy for you to distinguish the two species so that you never get caught buying the wrong one. There was a time when I too was confused because of the prevalence of so many psychotria alba plants posing as psychotria viridis. Many times, the seller is not even aware because he or she trusted their source greatly. Like with many misidentification cases, mistakenly identified plants become references that fuel the confusion. So it becomes hard to even research the right answer. Well, this guide is intended as a resource for all those who are still in confusion about psychotria identification.
[See first image below]
The first thing you want to consider is the leaf margins. The plant in this photo is young, but you can see one of the key ID features of alba vs. viridis showing even at this early age. The leaf margins extend all the way down on both sides of the petiole to meet the stem. In simpler terms, the stem or central leaf vein that connects the leaf to the main plant stem has little pieces of leaf (leaf margins) on both sides that follow all the way down on both sides. Sometimes alba leaf margins will come down close. But you want to make sure they come down all the way on both sides. This seems very simple, but it is actually a very consistent feature of psychotria viridis.
[See second image below]
With psychotria alba, the leaf margin ends up further on the petiole (leaf stem). Normally, you might not think to pay attention to this type of detail. But if you do, it will almost certainly allow you to tell the difference between the two species. Variance can occur even among leaves on the same plant. So it is important to stick to these features and not be misled by paying attention to other types of similarities or differences. If you are shopping for a plant, this is most likely the feature you will have to base your ID on because it is the feature that reveals itself in all stages of growth without having the plant growing in front of you. If you understand the concept, it should eventually become quite obvious. Don’t let your imagination stretch. Most “viridis” plants are really alba.
A second difference that will help you ID whether your psychtoria is alba or viridis is growth speed. Unfortunately, you will not be able to use this feature to ID a plant until you already have the plant growing in front of you. Growth speed is also a more subjective feature than the leaf margin. But it can be used in conjunction with the other features to create a well-rounded identification of your psychotria plant. So getting to the point, psychotria alba is known to grow at a faster rate than psychotria viridis. If your plant is putting on growth fairly quickly, it might be a sign that you have an alba growing. But you also have to consider the role that conditions play in growth speed. Many times, even alba will grow rather slowly, especially in cooler temperatures. But you can consider growth speed a good way to back up what you’ve found out about the leaf margins on your plant.
A third feature to consider in your psychotira ID is flower color. While flower color is perhaps the most easily distinguishable feature, it requires that your plant be in bloom. It is rare that you’ll find a plant for sale that is in bloom. But like growth speed, it can often provide more insight about a plant you’ve been growing. When it comes to flower color, alba, as the name suggests, has white flowers. On the other hand, viridis will most often have greenish flowers with white stamens. So if you see green flowers, it’s a pretty good affirmation that you’re growing psychotria viridis.
A fourth feature to consider in your psychotria ID is leaf waviness. It is important to use this as a secondary feature in your identification because it is less consistent. It is more of a way to rule out viridis than to confirm alba. Psychotria alba leaves tend to have wavy or rippled edges whereas those of psychotria viridis will not. You can see from the psychotria alba picture above that waviness is not always a feature of alba. Some clones of the same plant did show wavy leaves though. What is important to remember is that wavy edges are frequently associated with alba, but not always. So if you do see them, it is a good piece of information to use in conjunction with your other findings to suggest that you are dealing with alba. You might see certain curling of viridis leaves due to humidity or health conditions. So it is important to note that we are specifically referring to rippling on the edges of the leaves. This feature usually does not appear as some type of deformity, but rather as a natural feature of the leaf itself. But to reiterate, leaf waviness is a variable feature of psychotria alba. So do not let the lack of waviness on its own trick you into thinking you are dealing with psychotria viridis. It seems that this is one area where many people are steered wrong.
One last feature to consider in your psychotria ID is the undersides of the leaf. It has been noted that the undersides of psychotria viridis leaves tend to have what look like little “spines” coming off the central leaf vein. The following link shows an example of these types of so-called spines http://entheopedia.org/pics/Entheopedia.Org/pvirisid.jpg This feature is not normally associated with psychotria alba, and it can be another part of a well-rounded psychotria identification.
Aside from these five features, there are certain other tendencies of viridis compared to psychotria alba. However, to avoid the risk of causing confusion we will keep our ID guide to these more reliable characteristics. Using the information described above, there should be quite enough information for you to make an informed identification. Although at first glance, the two species are seemingly undistinguishable, we now see that there are actually a number of obvious differences that surface when you focus on the details. It is important to value the more consistent features, such as the leaf margins extending down to the stem, over the variable features, such as the wavy leaf edges. But you also want to take into account as many features as you can. And when all is considered it should be quite clear what you are dealing with.
Thank You,
Hcc
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Hey happy,
I hadn't seen that before, but it looks like a good and accurate write-up. Good find!
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Hey happy,
I hadn't seen that before, but it looks like a good and accurate write-up. Good find!
Thank ya Onion.
In that writeup, they talk about the leaf margins of both plants, viridis comes down to the stem and alba doesn't. Could you confirm this? Could you possibly take photos of this too?
Many Thanks,
hcc
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OK got some pictures of my albas, with some close ups. You can see the wavey edges on the leaves,
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Here's some photos of viridis and alba. The first one is viridis. Notice how the leaves are more floppy and the how the leaf margins at the base extend nearly all the way to the stem.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7tZezccv5wY/U8hWZT9rMqI/AAAAAAAAPyM/SMf76CoXrRU/w777-h583-no/IMG_20140717_180348.jpg)
P. alba
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-KVJtkrZjGxI/U8k6rKVXZSI/AAAAAAAAPzE/0stHRyEPhFk/w437-h583-no/IMG_20140718_101246.jpg)
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This has turned into a great thread. Thanks for the valuable information!
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I finally remembered to take a picture of P. viridis showing the dolmatia on the underside of the leaves. Not all of the leaves have these, but P. alba leaves never have them. Look at the appendages coming off of the center vein....
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-N9cu4lSEpDY/U8W2GXlh37I/AAAAAAAAPvM/Lga0NSRnr-s/w437-h583-no/IMG_20140715_181440.jpg)
I have noticed those appendages coming off the center vein of my Psychotria nexus leaf, it makes sense because P. viridis is one of the two Psychotrias which created that hybrid.
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Should get some pictures of your p. Nexus on here to compare , would be cool
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While this isn't the healthiest example of P. nexus (had some insect damage but that's no more thanks to insecticidal soap), I received this P. nexus leaf from a well trusted member here on STS ;) it may only be one rooting leaf but it still shows very similar appendages off the main vein (one of the top nodes on the leaf really shows it).
[I'm aware the tip of the leaf has browning on it but that hasn't progressed further on it in weeks so I'm not worried ;)]
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Thats awesome, can definitely see the little appendages
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Psychotria nexus is similarly floppy like viridis is.
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These are my baby P.Nexus
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Viridis detail
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Cool pictures
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Are these the appendages that people have mentioned? This is on a plant sold as an alba.
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I do see appendages on the underside, looks like you may not have Psychotria alba there. How pointed is the tip of the leaf on that plant? It's also hard to the the leaf margin at the base in the picture.
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Here's a few more photos. The leaves go all the way down to the stem like a viridis, plus the appendages shown above, but the leaves are pointed and wavy like an alba. It's been a slow grower, but was also in pretty rough shape when I got it and was in soil that was too heavy until a couple months ago.
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While I cannot identify which Psychotria species it is, I can tell you that it's not alba, although there are some similarities.
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Thanks, TBM.
I'd like to hear any opinions on what is actually is. I can take additional pics if any other features will help in the distinction. Thanks y'all!
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The more I read through this thread and look at the plant, the more I think I may actually have bought an Alba and have gotten a viridis. I guess maybe theres a first time for everything! :P
Uness its a nexus or a carthagenesis...
Has anyone noticed any identifying differences between the viridis and nexus?
Also, does a carthagenesis have any distinguishing traits?
It would be awesome to have a guide here to distinguish any of the psychotrias we might potentially run across.
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Is there a difference between Alba and Carthagenesis? I was under the impression they were the same... but I could quite possibly be wrong.
I have some young viridis, nexus, and more mature and flowering alba. I'll try to take some good pictures of each.
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Although I don't have any mature plants.. I have now received leaf cuttings of viridis, alba, carthagenensis and nexus. The only one with those appendages was viridis. BUT, they don't seem to be as pointy as the ones in your pics. The carthagenensis are definitely the most pointy of mine.
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Do the carthagenesis have leaves that go all the way back to the stem? I looked at pictures of all the types of psychotrias I could find, and it looked like the viridis and nexus are the only ones where the leaves don't close down before the stem.
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SoulGrower.. among the Alba leaves I sent you, 2 were definitely Alba, and 2 were from a plant that was sold to me as viridis (but was definitely not) I assumed this was Alba as well which is why I put them in the same bag.
However, I have noticed that this particular plant looks a little different than the one that certainly is Alba.. the leaves are slightly narrower, and pointier. Perhaps this is actually Carthagenesis? This is also the one that is flowering (white flowers). It's pretty much been flowering constantly since I got it when it was just a small 8" rooted cutting. Now it's about 2.5ft tall and has also grown a little taller and lankier than the Alba. That may just be from a difference in growing conditions though the two have been under very similar conditions and diet for most of their life with me:-)
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I really want to get to the bottom of this. The plant in question is mature enough to propagate from, so it's sharable to new members. I'm going to take more pics this evening or tomorrow to compare against my known viridis that have been in the same growing conditions and see if we can get a consensus here or at the other forum.
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With the only options left being viridis and nexus, in all likelihood it's Psychotria viridis; considering nexus is a new hybrid and only certain vendors even have it so far, I just don't see them accidentally giving you a nexus. Unless that vendor has Psychotria nexus for sale too....
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Saros.. yeah, you mentioned in PM about sending me carthagensis, but the leaves you sent me were labeled alba.. so I assumed that you sent me alba and didn't want to bother to ask you if they were actually carthagenensis. And they looked like my alba. Did you also send me two Nexus leaves? wrapped up with the Nexus plantlet? That's what I assumed
Since then, another member has sent me carthagenensis leaves and I suspect they are correctly ID'd. They are definitely more narrow than any of the other psychotrias I have. And pointier. FP's plant looks very similar to them. The only difference is that my carthagenensis don't have those appendages. I don't remember if the margins extend all the way down the petiole (like viridis).
I will unpot some of my leaves later and take pictures in a side by side comparison, to hopefully clearly show the differences.. as I should have one of each right now.
Can anyone confirm if Nexus has the appendages? If it doesn't, I believe your plant is a viridis FP.
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SoulGrower, yeah, until this discussion I was under the impression Alba and Carthagenesis were different names for the same plant.
The two leaves packed in with the nexus plantlet are definitely Nexus. They were from a young plant so I wouldn't count on them having all the characteristics of a mature Nexus yet. I'll check my larger Nexus plants to see what characteristics they have (though all of my nexus plants are < 8mo old).
Of the four leaves in the bag labeled "Alba", two were slightly larger and wider. They are Alba. Originally gotten as leaf cuttings from WSS 2 years ago. I trust their ID. The other 2 that are slightly smaller & narrower are from a seller named Visionary Botanicals on ecrater.com. They were sold as viridis, but when I noticed the wavy leaves, and how they don't go all the way to the stem, and white flowers, I figured it was just another Alba... but now I'm second guessing that. So if you can figure out which of the four leaves those were, probably best to label them as "Mystery Psychotria" for now:-p
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Well, I checked my nexus plants and they do not have the appendages, but neither do my viridis so I think all my plants are just too young or maybe not in optional conditions to form them.
I came across this thread which looks real interesting but I can't view the pictures..
http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28364&page=3
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Some P. alba, P. carthagenensis and P. viridis pics
http://fm2.fieldmuseum.org/plantguides/view.asp
I thought the link would go to the research I did. Actually the link goes to the search page. Just put "Psychotria" in the Gender field and observe characteristics of the various species
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Thanks for sharing that EIRN,
The main difference I notice between the pics of alba and carthaginensis photos is that alba seems to have veins in the leaves directly across from each other while in the carthaginensis pics the veins are mostly alternating. Is that a reliable distinguishing trait or just coincidence?
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Thanks for sharing that EIRN,
The main difference I notice between the pics of alba and carthaginensis photos is that alba seems to have veins in the leaves directly across from each other while in the carthaginensis pics the veins are mostly alternating. Is that a reliable distinguishing trait or just coincidence?
explain that exceeds my ability to write in English, but I will try.
Normally the leaves of lanceolate and are flat carthagenensis. While alba is more rounded and undulating.
The Stipules are different. the beginning of the sprouting of leaves are also different.
But pics are not good to show those caracteristichs
About veins I can't tell nothing. I never payed attention on this.
If I remember I will take some pics of a Alba form my friend and my carthagenensis.
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Unfortunately, I only have one viridis leaf and it is well rooted with plantlets, so it wasn't the best for a side by side comparison.
I attached pics of carthagenensis and alba side by side. Margins extend down petiole comparably. Veins are similar. The alba has wavy leaf margins. The carthagenensis has a bit of an 'S' curvature to it and it is more pointy.
The carthagenensis is on top. Alba on bottom.
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Late to the party but I thought I'd post this link to a similar discussion where we ironed all this out a few years ago.
Post #83 shows some bona fide viridis. Pay attention to the pics showing the structure of the inflorescences and fruit.
You have to sign up as a member but it's unquestionably worth your while.
http://www.thenook.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=78927&page=3
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Lots of good ID keys in this thread:
http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28005&p=305271
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I've just got to post this one too:
http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28364&hl=caboclinha#entry351293
It's an old thread but there is mention of 6 Brazilian cultivars that capture my curiosity:
-orelha de duende
-caboclinha
-cabocla
-branca pingada
-cafezinho
-olho roxo
I am attempting to collect as many of the named cultivars as I can so I would appreciate any information anyone might have about these.
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I've just got to post this one too:
http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28364&hl=caboclinha#entry351293
It's an old thread but there is mention of 6 Brazilian cultivars that capture my curiosity:
-orelha de duende
-caboclinha
-cabocla
-branca pingada
-cafezinho
-olho roxo
I am attempting to collect as many of the named cultivars as I can so I would appreciate any information anyone might have about these.
The brazilian forum is offline...I was a member....anyway the post didn't have good info, just some leaves pics...this isn't enough to get the ID....olho roxo, for example, is about the stipule...looking only to a leaf you can't see the stipule.
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Check out the last page for pics
http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28364&p=419487
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Check out the last page for pics
Thanks Modern, I was about to mention that. The member of the SAB forum reposted the Plantas entogeneas.org pictures and machine translated Brasilian to English.
This is the stipule of olho roxo.
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Here's some photos of viridis and alba. The first one is viridis. Notice how the leaves are more floppy and the how the leaf margins at the base extend nearly all the way to the stem.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7tZezccv5wY/U8hWZT9rMqI/AAAAAAAAPyM/SMf76CoXrRU/w777-h583-no/IMG_20140717_180348.jpg)
P. alba
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-KVJtkrZjGxI/U8k6rKVXZSI/AAAAAAAAPzE/0stHRyEPhFk/w437-h583-no/IMG_20140718_101246.jpg)
anyone here know how to grow viridis as bushy as in the first picture? is it by pinching them?
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I know that harvesting leaves off helps. I found out by accident after some cold damage, and EIRN confirmed that pulling leaves off will help branching and growth.
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important to notice the ripple wave in the P. Alba leaf that the above picture captures so well. That is a fine looking P.Viridis plant.
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Another really great ID thread. Very helpful! I think I have real PV. I'll verify before I leave my seller feedback though. haha
anyone here know how to grow viridis as bushy as in the first picture? is it by pinching them?
From what I've been reading, pinching the top node works very well and will cause it to branch out into many tops.
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I'll just link the comparison/ID guide I posted on the shroomery, I compare alba, viridis, nexus & colorata: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25099258#25099258
But basically the two key points to me between alba & viridis are:
- Horned veins on the backside of most if not all viridis leaves, no horns/excressences on alba.
- Visible petiole on alba while viridis leaves always wraps all the way to the main stem.
The first 3 pics are viridis, the last 3 are alba:
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I finally remembered to take a picture of P. viridis showing the dolmatia on the underside of the leaves. Not all of the leaves have these, but P. alba leaves never have them. Look at the appendages coming off of the center vein....
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-N9cu4lSEpDY/U8W2GXlh37I/AAAAAAAAPvM/Lga0NSRnr-s/w437-h583-no/IMG_20140715_181440.jpg)
I have noticed those appendages coming off the center vein of my Psychotria nexus leaf, it makes sense because P. viridis is one of the two Psychotrias which created that hybrid.
Thanks!!! that confirms my suspicions, i was trying to positive ID p.nexus as nexus NOT alba,
i will confirm nexus has 'spikes' on the leaf center vein, like viridis but much less pronounced.
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My alba,it was sold to me as viridis.
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Be aware that viridis and the Nexus hybrid don't always express those dolmatia on the undersides of the leaves. They usually show up as the plant ages and with high enough humidity levels, and some genotypes don't have them at all.
The seeds my plant originated from came from a botanical garden in Nauta Peru and there are two distinct types, one of which rarely gets dolmatia. They have all tested postive via GC/MS and bioassay.
There are other (inactive) species that have dolmatia too but they are not found at all in the hobby as far as I know.
The take home is that dolmatia indicate you do most likely have viridis. If dolmatia are absent you'll need to rely on other characteristics to ID your plants.
For those who have clones of my plants, Bach #1, #2 and #6 are the broadleaf type that make dolmatia while the rest, namely #3, #4, #5 and #7 have narrower, more emerald green leaves and few if any dolmatia.
Lastly alba does sometimes develop dolmatia, but there is usually only a single pair at the base of the leaf near the petiole.
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hi, thankyou both for this topic, ive been trying to gather as much experience and knowledge as i can on this species, as im currently trying to gather as many variations as i can, its always best to take on board info from those who've genuine experience and hands on with the differences and variables, if its okay... mabe you could share your experience and knowledge on any other mention able differences you've become aware of... or contacts you may have .....regarding finding out more about this species and its chemo vars, and possibly attaining cuttings or seeds to add to the collection..... im trying to gather as much info as i can, and found this thread so helpful......thankuuuuu ....Catara.... also....i was wondering if you would mind if i quoted your observations and images to my colleagues and friends, to show them what info ive gathered....i will be asking them all to join this forum asap......
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Hi! I registered on this forum for this!
What do you think about the P. Viridis shown on this website?
Please scroll down, there’s a bunch of different samples collected from different plates.
Identification page P. Viridis (http://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:763751-1)
As you can see, none of the Viridis pics on that page show a short petiole.
Thank you. I’m hoping for some insights in this matter. I’m confused.
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What would this plant be? Only the new leaves show some "thorns". Notice the medium length petioles.
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That's a difficult one for sure. Doesn't look like a typical viridis but it's not alba either. Could be somthing totally unrelated, or it could be viridis, or could be one of the hybrids.
If you are interested the alk profile, probably best to do a TLC on it.
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Thank you man!
Did you check out the Viridis in the link in my post above?
They don't really have the same petiole length mentioned in this thread.
The information on the internet is all very confusing.
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If you are interested the alk profile, probably best to do a TLC on it.
Are there kits for performing TLC at home, and if so, have you used them before?
I work in a university, so could probably find a colleague with some experience performing it. I know we have HPLC equipment in my lab too, although I've not had a chance to use it as yet. Might make a nice little project for one of my students if someone was able to provide the plant material. I know the owner of the HPLC equipment is a keen gardener too. Just a thought :)