Share The Seeds
Gardening Area => Advanced Cultivation Techniques => Topic started by: Radium on May 28, 2015, 02:19:18 PM
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I have little space, and thus I'm recently planning to use my rooftop as well for growing my green friends.
But I'm an student right now, and I live on a tight budget.
I don't like the idea of just placing some containers on the rooftop and call it a rooftop garden.
I want to prepare a real raised bed, using the cheapest materials, and totally safe for the rooftop (regarding water leakage)
My rooftop floor is made of Asphalt, and if there be water on it for extended durations, it will leak into the building and wreck the house.
Got any brilliant ideas?
I was thinking about using cardboard as the material for making beds/containers.
But need to find a glue-ish material for applying on it, to prevent the cardboard from rotting after a year or two.
Any ideas?
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You can Poly the cardboard, but I think you'll have to reapply it.
We made cardboard furniture in one of my architecture classes, they can be quite strong but you have to laminate really well.
You still would potentially be dealing with water leakage however. Maybe figure out a water recycling system where your excess water drains into a bucket that you can then re-use
Green Roofs are a pretty complicated system
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I think cardboard has that one disadvantage: If any water leaks in it suddenly looses most of its strength. So maybe going with plywood and the likes is the way to go, I would consider contructing the floor and borders of the bed and lining it with pond lining sheets. They are made to contain water, easy for them to contain moist soil. Just make sure you have no sharp edges or points under it so it doesnt rupture, if in doubt use a layer of felt under it to protect it.
You should investigate how much bricks will be for you, bricks run cheap, have asthetical value (at least for me) and lend themselves to very intuitive construction. Durability is given, again: line with pond sheets.
Maybe you can substitute the pond lining with other plastic sheets for example the white black sheets... at higher risk.
Sadly its hard to get around using any plastic if you want it affordable and waterproof, only things like concrete (and maybe paint) will help you, or a carefully applied layer of epoxy on your concrete / bricks / cardboard / plywood.
Lets see what you stick with in the end.
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Concrete Masonry Units (Blocks) I think were used for hydroponic troughs in Cuba, now are simply soil planters for urban agriculture. I think its called Organicopos?
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b4/bc/b1/b4bcb18c5c375f20d06401e18573fa0b.jpg)
This isnt it but one disadvantage is weight, blocks and bricks are heavy.
You still need to do as BC said however, concrete is porous and will leak, I suggest a water-reusage system still :P
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I would check with your landlord to see if it's allowed, first. Other than that, plywood is light, cheap and customizable. Just waterproof the living hell out of it and you'll be fine :)
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Or you come up with a floating design somyou can monitor the runout. If its not much it will evaporate within a few days and it doesnt need to be much, any runout suggests youre done watering. Also the whole thing wont get waterlocked ("closed container gardening"). So the best would be: Either seal everything but incorporate a runoff in your design, maybe one that allows you to collect and reuse water, or put it on stands and just ket it run on your roof where it evaps.
Why assume theres a landlord ? :D
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Landlord, housing manager, building manager, whatever ::) :)
And although container gardening isn't the desired outcome, I would like to point out that it is portable. What happens if you move?
Just my 2 cents ;)
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Was just meaning maybe and hopefully Uranium is all those in one person.
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Well, in that case, ROOFTOP GREENHOUSE!!! 8)
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I'm living in a 4 story building.
There are 3 other families living here besides me.
I asked all of them, and they are very happy and eager to see the outcome, and called it a brilliant idea.
And also I'm literally the boss of rooftop, no one goes there without my permission (The door is locked, and the only person with keys is me).
And I don't plan to move anywhere, I'm doing just fine here already :D
I would love to someday upgrade the bed into a greenhouse, and I guess it wouldn't be hard, it just needs some PVC pipes and "clear plastic membranes" (sorry don't know what you call these).
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For a greenhouse you'll most likely want to use Polycarbonate ribbed panels and a wooden or metal frame. Isnt your place rather hot anyways ? :D
You should consider a rainwater tank on your roof to minimise tap water use.
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We have hot summers, but also very cold freezing winters, which kills any unprotected tropical plants.
A greenhouse will come very handy, especially for growing cacti without worrying about frost.
The rainfall tank idea is indeed very nice.
BTW, is MDF a suitable material for building the box on its own? I mean no other material applied to it for water-proofing or rot prevention.
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I did a rooftop garden last year on a $150 budget.
Make sure you're stocked on seeds, create a shade canopy.
I would set a kiddie pool(if available) up and throw your pots in there, or better yet, convert it into a raised bed.
There were a few places where you would climb up to the roof using a ladder and little niches were built almost like attic space where the sun would still shine on. I planted a ton of Phalaris in soil and that ended up collapsing through that little niche. Good thing the building was already in poor condition otherwise it would have drained my finances fixing it.
On the roof we had Campsis Radicans, Corn, Mucuna Pruriens, Arundo Donax, Acacia Berlandieri, Opuntias, and some Safflower among many other things. You have to be able to water/mist daily.
Another idea would be to create a trellis of sorts that vines could climb on. That would at least give you something to grow whilst constructing the garden.
Hope that helps.
Best of luck on this
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Kiddie pools would definitely be good, since they're waterproof. You might be able to use big plastic tubs/totes, but that might be a bit expensive.
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Kiddie pools sound good.
I don't know about waterproofing, but I have made some very nice raised beds for free out of pallets. You can often dumpster them behind grocery stores & they are easy to turn into all sorts of things.
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Plastic seems to be the cheapest, easiest, and most recyclable when it comes to waterproofing. You could always use marine paint or fiberglass resin...but they can get pretty pricey and the fumes are no bueno :(
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Maybe we want to look at things the other way round: Since money and most likely time are limited: What tools and skills do you have ? Advising on basic mansonry wouldnt be smart if you never dealt with it and are probably lacking the tools and skill thus needing more money and time acquiring those and paying for the f**k ups.
Also: what material or what kind of shops do you have acess too, do you already have anything we could think of reusing or repurposing, again: no reason in suggesting plywood if there none to be had.
A childrens pool doesnt sound applicable to me since if I got Uranium right he does want the outcome to be pleasing to the eye too, hence not only "a few containers".
"otherwise it would have drained my finances fixing it." Thats why I try to garden as little as possible in or on my houses, if I pass my favourite victim building today I'll snap a pic :D
Edit: the fumes of epoxy and poly are a sacred gift ! :D
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Bubble makes a good point. Carpentry is pretty easy, tools and materials wise. I don't know anything about masonry though :)
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Even more easy tools wise and for basic brickwork skill wise, not so much when making vaults without support structures :)
Edit: this style: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HXHQpCXuLWI
Maybe Uranium could also camouflage a "inferior" garden like make a container garden and stick a few boards around it for the nice looks, then individual plants stay portable but all lut together the looks are nice.
See signature btw :D
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I like that idea! build a simple wood bed/ box/ whatever, stain or paint it however you like, load in your container(s), aaaaaand done! Makes it easier for watering/ harvesting/ rearranging/ ect.
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And maybe even hide a rectangular pool in there in case the kids pay a visit, but yeah I still vouch for a layer of protective felt and pond lining if available.
He'll most likely want to stick with one size of preferrably square pots then.
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Maybe sterilite/ rubbermaid bins, those are rectangular and pretty easy to move around. Hmmm, Uranium, what will you be growing? And how much?
As for watering...do you have a gutter system you could attach a rain barrel to? Or are you good on water supplies?
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We have underground water here aside tap water, which is pumped up to rooftop to supply coolers. it's very cheap.
And we have episodes of no rainfall at all for long periods of time, plus short days of flooding crazy rainfalls.
Kids are forbidden to enter the rooftop, after two of kids died there.
One of them dropped down and died (due to walking backwards carelessly) when flying her kite up there.
And some years before than that, a 5 years boy jumped off the rooftop while holding an umbrella in hand, thinking it would slow him down and give him a nice aerial ride. The parents said he watched a TV kids show yesterday where two crazy inspectors dropped off a 10 story building using umbrellas. poor kid was impaled on the sharp cherry tree in the backyard.
After all these, all residents decided to lock the rooftop, and I was chosen as the only key holder.
Anyway... back to our topic:
I am also thinking about using papercrete to build the raised bed.
I've worked with it before, it's a fantastic material, cheap, light, and easily workable.
The only drawback is that it's not waterproof, but that can be solved by elevating it 10cm, and also placing a layer of plastic sheeting under it on the rooftop surface.
I just worry about rot and destruction.
I'm not sure if papercrete does rot and deform gradually when exposed to water, or not.
Especially the variation made out of paper and plaster of Paris, because concrete is only sold in bulk here, they won't sell less it less than 200kg.
But I'm sure wax can be applied on papercrete because of its texture, allowing the wax to stick to it perfectly.
I haven't decided what to grow in that garden, but I will grow mostly annual vegetables, and maybe some grape vine.
Also if I can build a bed that can last for years, I will make a greenhouse and grow various tropical sacred plants like mimosa and caapi.
take a look at here:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/472203/
I like to build one of them, but in the shape of a vast and big box, around 2x6 meters, and 40cm soil depth.
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Long live Pinterest!
I just found this:
http://www.thehypertufagardener.com/oh-the-possibilities-draped-hypertufa/
Can be used to build big boxes.
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That seems like an interesting concept, the draped hypertufa...but how will you get it 2x6 meters? Maybe a custom frame...
Also, is it at least water resistant? Because it seems like a lot of trouble to go through (i.e. waterproofing the inside, keeping the bottom dry). And then you have to worry about the sides, because they'll get wet when it rains... The best bet would probably be a waterproof coating of marine paint or fiberglass resin, which would take care of any potential rot or crumbling.
Or just smother the whole damn thing in beeswax! ;D
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I haven't ever worked with cement, but I've heard it's water resisting on its own.
I will elevate the bed, by placing 4 bricks under it as legs.
And place a plastic sheet under the bed, to gather any water that leaks out of it.
I have to look for a frame for molding now.
Maybe an old door placed on two blocks?
It doesn't need to be 2x6, actually it will be better to divide it into multiple parts for better portability.
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A door would work. Sawhorses might be better than blocks as supports, but use what you've got :)
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Hypertufa isnt waterproof
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Hypertufa isnt waterproof
What happens to it after awhile if constantly watered?
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I haven't ever worked with cement, but I've heard it's water resisting on its own.
Concrete is porous. Cement is like a glue you used to bind together an aggregate to make concrete. You can however seal it using a variety of techniques, and have the water go where you want it to go. If you don't it will just leak through the concrete. I know I said Green Roof Systems are complicated but habibitable roofs in general are complicated systems due to the fact that you have to drain water, and it has to be sealed so that water doesn't get into the building. This is why we like sloped roofs so much, its much cheaper and doesn't involve a detailed of a process
Thats not to say its difficult, its just a very evolved process.
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Cheap and easy for concrete: waterproofing paint. but on hypertufa it might be a problem because of the wanted high porosity, you had to apply lots of waterproofing pain.
Those porous materials like clay pots, hypertufa, concrete ... all leak water, but slowly if the water contained is more wet soil and not a swamp. So if there is air surrounding it you will most likely not even realise its leaking since it evaporates at least as fast as it leaks.
The problem will be found at the base, where you want your water the least (roof) theres no air and so nowhere for the leaking water to evaporate, it will then creep into your roof.
But note: you might face a similar problem when using perfectly sealed containers, when it rains the water will creep into that tiny gap between container and roof (both surfaces are by far not flat) and there it will evaporate much slower and may cause issues.
So: If I was you and was worried about the roof I would make sure the contact patch between whatever you come up with or decide to go with in the end is minimised, this means: put singly bricks underneath allowing much air in between your raised bed and roof, or even wooden stands or whatever. Dont just place a big sheet of something directly on your roof, the first rain will go under it and mess with your roof and the sheet itself.
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Yeah, due to full sun and hot weather we have here, water will evaporate before being able to leak into the roof materials.
I will elevate the entire container using wooden stands or bricks, about 10-20cm, to allow a large amount of air circulation under the container.
And won't place any sheets as you mentioned. Good note.
So we have no problem with leakage anymore.
Now back to another problem:
Which of these materials can tolerate being in contact with water for years, without crumbling into a heap of wreck?
- Hypertufa
- Papercrete (paper+plaster of paris)
- Papercrete (paper+clay)
- Papercrete (paper+cement)
- Concrete
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If you dont waterproof it (paint / plastic lining ...): None, if you do: All
None of those listed is absolutely waterproof of its own. With concrete theexact formulation will play a big role.
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If you dont waterproof it (paint / plastic lining ...): None, if you do: All
None of those listed is absolutely waterproof of its own. With concrete theexact formulation will play a big role.
Then both of these non-waterproof hypertufa pots are gonna destruct after a few years?
(http://i1.wp.com/www.thehypertufagardener.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Moss-on-Tufa-e1431649245207.jpg?resize=650%2C272)
(http://i0.wp.com/www.thehypertufagardener.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/SpringGrowth-hypertufa-gardener.jpg?resize=500%2C375)
I don't have any problem if a material is porous and water leaks through it, I just need it to keep its shape and density for a long time. Do you know any such material?
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As long theres no freezing absolutely not going to destruct, thanks to porousity its even pretty frost proof. If you go with something that leaks just remember keeping it off the ground.
Just remember a whole hypertufa raised bed will be heavy.
Also keep in mind you might want to go with several single hypertufa units then, since ridgidity will be greatly reduced with size until it needs structural reinforcements or simply fails, especially when only supported on the corners to allow air under. And you will be basically making 3 rooftop gardens as you will most probably need a positive and a negative mold. Good thing is: you can include the standa on all corners into your design.
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Sounds like we've covered all the bases then :)
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So... youre stuck with hypertufa for your rooftop gardening, you want to allow air under it for good ventilation and no moisture buildup, IMO you want individual units you can move around and that are sturdy and ridgig, you will need a two-part mold, and so on.
Good I have put my thoughts on paper and as always have sucesfully messed up the perspective but it should still be clear.
In step one you take a square baseplate (lets assume you use plywood, preferably sealed plywood) of desired dimensions a x a x t (t being uniform thickness of all plywood used). Next you want to put a wooden beam section a x b x b centered across the basplate and secure it into place with two plywood / spax screws from the opposing side of the baseplate. Then you want to complete a cross with two more wooden beam sections (a - b)/2 in the same manner.
Then in step two you want to attach 2 rectangular sheets a x h x t (h being desired height) opposing to each other and lining up with the edges of the baseplate using more screws which will hapilly go into the wooden beam cross and the baseplate. Then you want to complete the box with two rectangular sheets (a + 2t) x h x t opposing each other and attached in the same manner and additional screws at the top where theese sheets overlap the previous to due to the added 2 t in width. Then you have a nice box with a cross at the bottom.
Next you want to choose a desired thickness for all walls and the bottom of your gardening container, once done you want to subtract twice that thickness (only once in case of the bottom) from the inside dimensions of your cross and construct a plain rectangular (maybe slightly tapered) box with exactly the resulting outside dimensions or pick any existing container or shape or even base your design around one. If you want a drain hole its not time to place a candle section on top of the center of the cross. Then you want to fill in the box (lets call it negative mold) to the calculated height for the bottom of your container over the cross (so basically to the top of the optional candle section). Next you want to place your positive mold (rectangular box) centered in the negative mold so it sits firm and level on the layer of Hypertufa you poured in. Then you want to simply fill all of the remaining gap in between positive and negative mold to the top and let the whole thing cure. After cure time that has to be determined experimentally (but better safe than sorry) you want to remove all screws and pop the negative mold apart and remove your wooden beam sections from the bottom of your resulting hypertufa container and try to wiggle the positive mold out (here it might come in to play that it can be tapered or maybe collapsible or sacrificial).
If everything works out you will have a hypertufa planting container with a drain hole at the bottom and a space underneath that allows for good ventilation of the rooftop amd maybe a small container to catch and evaporate draining water. Being square and of uniform height infinite equal containers could make a big rooftop jardin that can be rearranged as you like.
Be sure you stay away since cement can be quite ... caustic ? No inhaling not in your eyes and maybe not on your skin at all.
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Very nice exploded axonometric :)
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Shhhuuuuushhh ! I always confuse wether I am busy with sth Iso- di- trimetric or oblique and orthographic or perspectivic thus things get crooked :D
But as soon the idea gets physical shape everything is always right since I know what was meant :)
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Nice explanation Bubble!
I will do it as you said, lots of identical square pots, that can be placed around the rooftop in any fashion imaginable.
I'm currently doing a lot of composting, because soon I'm gonna need A LOT of good soil for the many new pots.
Good soil is expensive (in that amount), thus why not just make my own compost and mix it with free earth soil to make my own good soil?
I had one bin before, today I increased that into 5 bins.
5 bins full of kitchen waste and maize pods.
My preferred method is keeping the bin lid open for flies to get inside.
Then after a few days, I put on a fine screen mesh on the head of bin, to prevent newly born flies to escape out of the system.
So they keep reproducing inside the bin, and they do this until there's no food for them inside the bin, then they all die and become fast decomposing food for microbs.
Using this method I've made a lot of compost in the past.
Since flies cannot just eat your materials and then run away, you end up with a lot more compost than if you left the bin open.
And the compost is ready in a month or two, depending on the season.
I just love compost and composting, it looks like magic to me.
THE LAST QUESTION:
Since cement is only sold in bulk (+200kg) here, obviously I can't get my hands on cement, unless I go crazy and buy 200kg, and the bulk remaining of it will be wasted due to air moisture after sometime.
My favorite material is plaster of paris, it's cheap and can be bought in any amount I like.
Mixed with paper, it makes a wonderful material with many benefits.
It's very light, and the casting process also will be a lot shorter in time, since 5 minutes after pouring it inside the mold, it will harden up, and you can remove the pot and use the mold for making another pot again.
That way I can make 20-30 pots in some hours, and let them dry in the sun for 1 day, and they're ready to go.
My only concern is the longevity if left to be in contact with water/moisture.
Does pots made of paper and plaster of paris have the same properties of hypertufa regarding porousness and longevity?
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Plaster of paris is what they use to make limb casts. When a cast gets too wet, it turns to mush and sloughs off. Honestly, if you want structural integrity with that material you kind of have to protect them from water. Otherwise, all your hard work is ruined :(
If they're water resistant/ proof, and aren't roughed up too much, they'll probably last you a couple of years before you need to replace them.
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Won't the paper fibers help it to keep its shape?
I should experiment it.
Even if that withstand one full year, I'm happy with that, and will build another batch next year.
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All that structural integrity from fibers only works as long your plaster is dry hard and makes good bonds, as soon as plaster and fibers are wet theyre not good for anything anymore.
Plaster can get wet and dry of again to certain degree so id say if you dont have a lot of rainfall waterproof your containers and the drainholes from inside with waterproofing paint, if rainfall is an issue too cometely paint them.
You might want to come up with dimensions for your pots, calculate their volume, decide on the ratios of perlite cement sane organic matter ... you want to use and make an educated guess how much of the 200 kg youd be using, then investigate if there is any project of yours or friends that might use the remaining cement or investigate if you can store it in airtight containers with lids for future use.
Maybe go to a random building site and ask if a crate of beer or similar donation to the workers gets you a sack if cement (which already is 1/4 of the 200 kg).
Having acess to plaster you might want to investigate your acess to clay - what does your soil consist of ? Can you fire clay ? Plaster makes a fine slipcastin mold that will produce identical pots of desired shape.
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Yes clay is cheap as dirt here, because it's everywhere.
The native soil has a lot of clay content.
What is required to bake the clay pots?
Can I bake them inside a kitchen oven?
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You can do a Chickasaw method where you fire it in a pot of some sort (pictured below is a trash can) outside, very easy to do
https://www.chickasaw.tv/culture-keepers/video/pottery-drawn-to-chickasaw-history/list/crafts
This video has some information on it too. The beginning process is called Coil Building Method, done usually with a prayer.
BTW BC Isometric = 30/60 angle Axo=45 degree angle Plan Oblique is any extruded drawing of a plan at any rotation... iirc. But honestly theyre all interchangeable and used inconsistently so lol!
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In my experience traditional firing will always come with some ... some percentage of no good pots. So usually it needs sufficient pots or bricks since you dont want 10% of that one pot to be no no. Altho I never tried a trash can. For sure: uniform temperature and the right temperature fires your clay.
So personally I think for a small run dont make a coal or wood fire, get a 2000 W heating element from an oven, bend it to fit in a smaller well insulated oven to make a nice 1000 + C and give that a go.
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Found this, molded concrete planter.