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Author Topic: virids and alba crossing?  (Read 833 times)

cactusman

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virids and alba crossing?
« on: August 15, 2019, 03:36:44 am »

So both my viridis and alba are fruiting and making berrys...How do I tell if they cross pollinated?
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chronic

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Re: virids and alba crossing?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2019, 09:14:30 am »

They let themselves be crossed. The best known crosses are DW01 (Nexus) and DW02 by Darren Williams (Herbalistics). Another one is "Dirty Harry" from which I don't know where it comes from.
A natural cross is rare but possible. You have to help by hand and I don't know exactly what you have to pay attention to except with the brush.
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Mangrove

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Re: virids and alba crossing?
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2019, 10:32:55 am »

Another one is "Dirty Harry" from which I don't know where it comes from.

The Dirty Harry strain originated from me (well really, a friend's mother plant, whose leaves I shared with a few friends. I'm glad to hear that it's still out there!). Dirty Harry wasn't a psychotria hybrid, but rather an extraordinary potent strain of P. Viridis.
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chronic

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Re: virids and alba crossing?
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2019, 03:19:06 pm »

Mangrove this is extremely interesting for me because I love psychotria and everything that has to do with it. From Dirty Harry I have heard so far only from different people. I didn't have the genetics myself. Everyone said it was a hybrid.
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cactusman

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Re: virids and alba crossing?
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2019, 09:57:57 pm »

How would one go about hand pollinating? With a really small brush I guess? I've never pollinated anything before lol now I have something to look forward to.

Could I save the pollen from my male viridis somehow to cross with alba if their flowering cycles don't align?

Is there a guide for pollinating viridis by hand by any chance?
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chronic

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Re: virids and alba crossing?
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2019, 09:40:59 am »

You could try it with a Q-tip but there is probably a trick to overcome the species barrier.

What you can do, write to Darren Williams from Herbalistics and just ask him. If you're lucky he'll tell you how it works, if not we have a secret to work on.

If Darren tells you it would be nice if you tell us how it works. 
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chronic

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Re: virids and alba crossing?
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2019, 10:54:07 am »

One more question for understanding. Is "Dirty Harry" identical to "Rebel Clone" or are they two different P. viridis?
And if they are two different, why the name "Rebel Clone"?
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Otorongo

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Re: virids and alba crossing?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2020, 07:07:58 pm »

They let themselves be crossed. The best known crosses are DW01 (Nexus) and DW02 by Darren Williams (Herbalistics).
More accurately, DW01 and DW02 are crosses between P. viridis and P. carthagenensis, not P. viridis and P. alba.
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chronic

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Re: virids and alba crossing?
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2020, 12:05:54 am »

I am aware that next to alba a psychotria named carthagenensis exists, or rather is in circulation. I have such a plant standing here and wonder what it is exactly.

On the other hand alba is largely synonymous with carthagenensis. If you look for example at pictures of carthagenensis on Herbalistics, I think you can clearly see leaves of alba. The wavy shape is different from the species I have here as cartagenensis.
Interestingly, the leaves of my DW02 become much larger than those of DW01 (nexus) and also differ in their different appearance. Similar to my ominous carthagenensis to alba. My two hybrids come directly from Herbalistics.

Take a look at the wavy leaves that resemble those of alba.
https://herbalistics.com.au/product/psychotria-carthagenensis-sameruca-seed/

I would be very happy if someone could tell me more about it. Is it one and the same species, - subspecies, or two different species? Everything alba synonym carthagenensis or two species? There is a lot of confusion on this topic and I have been trying to solve the puzzle for a long time. If anyone knows more about it, please!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 12:22:18 am by chronic »
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Otorongo

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Re: virids and alba crossing?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2020, 10:56:57 pm »

I think they look a bit different. P. alba leaves are more wavy.
See P. carthagenensis here: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Leaves-of-Psychotria-carthagenensis-paje-zinha-left-and-Psychotria-viridis_fig4_286780001

On a different but related note: what they call P. vidiris 'Shipibo' over at Herbalistics seems to be synonymous with what some others refer to as P. viridis 'narrow leaf', and what they call amiruca in Ecuador.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 02:08:28 pm by Otorongo »
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chronic

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Re: virids and alba crossing?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2020, 11:27:41 pm »

I don't know how long you've been dealing with psychotria species and how strongly you mean how the leaves of Alba should be curled. Depending on environmental conditions, the leaves can be more or less wavy. On the Herbalistics picture you can see that this species (alba) tends to have very wavy leaves.

Yes UDV has narrow leaves. The real name in Brazil is probably "Seka". Anyway, my narrow-leafed one viridis from Brazil is identical with UDV.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 12:05:33 am by chronic »
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Bach

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Re: virids and alba crossing?
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2020, 05:26:47 am »

How would one go about hand pollinating? With a really small brush I guess? I've never pollinated anything before lol now I have something to look forward to.

Could I save the pollen from my male viridis somehow to cross with alba if their flowering cycles don't align?

Is there a guide for pollinating viridis by hand by any chance?

A really small brush would work well for hand pollinating but a number of times I have tried I have failed. Any seed from my plants tends to breed true to the parent. In other words the babies don't look intermediate between virids and alba.

The Nexus clone and DW02 clearly look different from both parents. I'm not sure what the barrier is to cross-pollinating the two species but Herbalistics has clearly cracked it.

Don't know about saving pollen but their flowering cycles largely overlap in the springtime, so that shouldn't be an issue.

And no guide exists that I am aware of about hand pollinating Psychotria, but I'm sure you can find general guidelins with a search engine. 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 03:28:43 am by Bach »
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chronic

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Re: virids and alba crossing?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2020, 08:27:52 pm »

Here with me, allba and viridis bloom almost simultaneously in summer with a slight slope of viridis towards autumn. All my own attempts to cross between alba and viridis have been also in vain.  Also the attempts of backcrossing with both and nexus. Interesting is the fact that Planthelper from the SAB many years ago had some spontaneously appeared fruits on his nexus plants. Therefore it seems to be possible that natural fertilization is at least not completely impossible.
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Bach

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Re: virids and alba crossing?
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2020, 04:23:17 am »

I've gotten berries from my Nexus plants too, enough to share with other people, but none have proven to be viable.  I think it's a sterile hybrid.

My understanding of the alba/carth issue is that botanically they are considered to be one species. They do express slightly different morphologies but a species is not fixed, singular thing. There can be and most often is variablity within certain bounds. That said my carth does have flatter, broader leaves than the albas. Carth is also much less likely to flower and fruit than alba.

The distinction in my opinion is moot anyway since neither plant is as interesting from a phytochemical standpoint as viridis is.
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cactusman

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Re: virids and alba crossing?
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2020, 01:38:14 am »


What you can do, write to Darren Williams from Herbalistics and just ask him. If you're lucky he'll tell you how it works, if not we have a secret to work on.

If Darren tells you it would be nice if you tell us how it works. 

He told me it's proprietary knowledge :(

My viridis and alba seem to flower n set fruit at nearly the same time.. My alba is covered in flowers right now the viridis already has berries on it.
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