Share The Seeds

Gardening Area => Seeds and Germination => Topic started by: caguama on November 28, 2018, 12:27:16 AM

Title: Virola germination info
Post by: caguama on November 28, 2018, 12:27:16 AM
Hello

Any information about germinating Virola seeds? GBA3? What type of substrate would be best? Would the use of spaghnum  moss be best, pure perlite or some other medium? Would you suggest washing with dilution of hydrogen peroxide?

Please share whatever you can about best practice. Thanks :)
Title: Re: Virola germination info
Post by: ONandONandON on November 28, 2018, 09:56:40 PM
i've never seen virola seeds available, interested in finding some, but i don't know about germinating..
Thought i might theorize maybe trying ash water soak. Some seeds have a signal to sprout after fires.
Title: Re: Virola germination info
Post by: Chicsa on November 28, 2018, 11:11:17 PM
i know a super legit source, but dunno how to germinate. pm me if u want me to try to get some for u
Title: Re: Virola germination info
Post by: Bach on November 29, 2018, 03:04:54 AM
I forget how I know this (getting too old dammit) but the seeds are eaten and dispersed by toucans, so perhaps a muriatic acid soak and a light scarification to emulate passing through a bird's gut? Also they tend to grow in low lying areas that can be moist if not actually boggy.

My one and only attempt I pronounced a failure after about six months. I kept the seeds in a container with moist to wet sphagnum moss with bottom heat. Did not do the acid soak or scarification though.

I had about four or five seeds. After a few months of no action I decided to peel off the outer seedcoat from one to see if it was still alive or rotten. It was alive, cotyledons and embryo looked fine. I placed the naked seed back in the container with it's compatriots and left it for the duration. A few months later I did the same thing with another. Same results. And the first one never rotted even though it had no seedcoat.

Fast forward a few more months and they finally started to rot. I don't know what the trigger for germination might be other than the acid soak/scarification.  They do have a reputation for being difficult to germinate, but someday someone is going to crack the code.

I know Psychotria seeds germinate much faster after passing through a bird's gut (thank you Mr. Mockingbird!) so the same might be the case here. Anybody have a pet toucan they can use to test out my theory?

Also see the thread below this one. Here's a link: http://sharetheseeds.me/forum/index.php?topic=5469.0

Who knows it might work.
Title: Re: Virola germination info
Post by: caguama on November 29, 2018, 07:36:17 AM
Hey people. So I have access to a good number of seeds and have started the process of germinating. I began by doing some reading on some of the literature on virola seeds and reading about their germination processes.

Began by washing the seeds for about 5 minutes in running tap water, followed by a 10 minute soak in 1 part hydrogen peroxide: 10 part tap water to sterilize, followed by another wash in tap water.

Next, I made a 500ppm, 750ppm dilution of 90% GBA3 and a plain tap water overnight (12 hrs) soak. The intention is to have different seed preparations with a control in order to see variation in germination rates with different concentrations of GBA3 and with a control (tap water).

Next, I placed the seeds in a seed starter tray amd humidity dome with 128 cells. I placed a portion of the cells with sphagnum moss bedding with a top blanket of perlite and a portion with only pure perlite. The seed starter tray has a heating mat underneath in order to keep the seed starter tray and dome warm. Some research demonstrated that higher germination of V. Surimanensis was achieved at 86° F in a controlled environment.

Any thoughts or suggestions?
Title: Re: Virola germination info
Post by: JayWise on November 29, 2018, 03:00:27 PM
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Title: Re: Virola germination info
Post by: caguama on November 30, 2018, 02:46:45 AM
According to a friend of mine that lives in the native habitat of Virola trees, the local birds often completely pick apart the seeds and destroy any chance of a viable seed passing through a local birds digestive system and later germinating. Although, I have had a look at some of the literature that talks about toucans and other birds eating the fruits from these trees. I'm not sure what to make of these conflicting perspectives.

Apparently the seeds that are able to germinate, do so under the forest canopy and under covering of leaves and other organic matter. So it seems that they don't need much light to get the process started. I am tempted to try an experiment of scarification and a soak in a acidic solution next time around.
Title: Re: Virola germination info
Post by: Bach on November 30, 2018, 05:44:18 PM
I kept mine uncovered on a bed of sphagnum under flourescent light on a 12/12 schedule. Perhaps the light acted to inhibit germination?

It's not too late to try the acid scarification on some of the seeds you've already started. They seem to stay viable for a long time even if we haven't figured out how to break dormancy.

Definitely interested in what you come up with caguama.
Title: Re: Virola germination info
Post by: caguama on November 30, 2018, 10:41:37 PM
I kept mine uncovered on a bed of sphagnum under flourescent light on a 12/12 schedule. Perhaps the light acted to inhibit germination?

It's not too late to try the acid scarification on some of the seeds you've already started. They seen to stay viable for a long time even if we haven't figured out how to break dormancy.

Definitely interested in what you come up with caguama.

Yes, I am interested in testing out scarification and acid soaking. The seeds have two different types of coatings. One of them is a reddish, waxy covering i have read in literature referred to as "aril". Not sure if i misread that part. Next is the harder seed coating that is not difficult to crack and part open. A medium strength squeeze with the thumb and finger cracks this seed coating.

What dilution of muriatic acid would be else? I wouldnt want for the seeds to be destroyed by the acid soak either. And would it be wise to tap water wash and then soak in GBA3?

Also what can you interpret about the soil type that they normally germinate in, given that they are in soil with plenty of organic matter and possibly well draining? Is it more acidic soil?

Thanks,
Caguama
Title: Re: Virola germination info
Post by: Bach on December 01, 2018, 02:33:47 AM
I would remove the aril completely, that's the part the toucans are after. Leave the hard seedcoat though. I think it survives the trek through the bird's intestinal system.

I'm sure parrots and other birds can destroy the seeds altogether before eating them but toucans with their oversize bills aren't equppied to do anything but eat them whole.

You could try removing the hard seedcoat and then treat with GBA just as an experiment.

I imagine you could dilute the muriatic acid maybe by about half and soak for five or ten minutes then rinse thoroughly. Hopefully it inactives any germination inhibitors, but treating with GBA might be a good thing too. This of course would be with the seedcoat still on. I wouldn't treat the naked seeds that way.

Sounds like you have a lot of seeds to treat lots of different ways.   ;D

As a broad guess I would think that the surface of the soil is covered with litter like you described earlier but underneath I would suspect laterite clay. Most rainforest areas have very little topsoil  since the nutrients get sucked up into the canopy very quickly. (This is why tropical soils are so poor for grazing cattle, the soil doesn't really carry the nutrients, they're all up in the canopy.)

That said most plants are pretty adaptable to their soil needs so I wouldn't worry about it too much except perhaps to make sure there is lots of iron available. Laterite is very rich in iron and I have grown a few tropicals that are prone to iron deficiency if not grown in high-iron soil. 
Title: Re: Virola germination info
Post by: Chicsa on December 01, 2018, 06:03:34 AM
I would remove the aril completely, that's the part the toucans are after. Leave the hard seedcoat though. I think it survives the trek through the bird's intestinal system.

I'm sure parrots and other birds can destroy the seeds altogether before eating them but toucans with their oversize bills aren't equppied to do anything but eat them whole.

You could try removing the hard seedcoat and then treat with GBA just as an experiment.

I imagine you could dilute the muriatic acid maybe by about half and soak for five or ten minutes then rinse thoroughly. Hopefully it inactives any germination inhibitors, but treating with GBA might be a good thing too. This of course would be with the seedcoat still on. I wouldn't treat the naked seeds that way.

Sounds like you have a lot of seeds to treat lots of different ways.   ;D

As a broad guess I would think that the surface of the soil is covered with litter like you described earlier but underneath I would suspect laterite clay. Most rainforest areas have very little topsoil  since the nutrients get sucked up into the canopy very quickly. (This is why tropical soils are so poor for grazing cattle, the soil doesn't really carry the nutrients.)

That said most plants are pretty adaptable to their soil needs so I wouldn't worry about it too much except perhaps to make sure there is lots of iron available. Laterite is very rich in iron and I have grown a few tropicals that are prone to iron deficiency if not grown in high-iron soil.

Now i'm tempted to try to get a buncha seeds and split em between us, see what we can do :P I'll see if they are affordable enough to get a bunch.
Title: Re: Virola germination info
Post by: caguama on December 01, 2018, 09:22:55 AM
I would remove the aril completely, that's the part the toucans are after. Leave the hard seedcoat though. I think it survives the trek through the bird's intestinal system.

I'm sure parrots and other birds can destroy the seeds altogether before eating them but toucans with their oversize bills aren't equppied to do anything but eat them whole.

You could try removing the hard seedcoat and then treat with GBA just as an experiment.

I imagine you could dilute the muriatic acid maybe by about half and soak for five or ten minutes then rinse thoroughly. Hopefully it inactives any germination inhibitors, but treating with GBA might be a good thing too. This of course would be with the seedcoat still on. I wouldn't treat the naked seeds that way.

Sounds like you have a lot of seeds to treat lots of different ways.   ;D

As a broad guess I would think that the surface of the soil is covered with litter like you described earlier but underneath I would suspect laterite clay. Most rainforest areas have very little topsoil  since the nutrients get sucked up into the canopy very quickly. (This is why tropical soils are so poor for grazing cattle, the soil doesn't really carry the nutrients.)

That said most plants are pretty adaptable to their soil needs so I wouldn't worry about it too much except perhaps to make sure there is lots of iron available. Laterite is very rich in iron and I have grown a few tropicals that are prone to iron deficiency if not grown in high-iron soil.

Thank you for that thoughtful response about the differences in bird species and beak sizes. It makes some sense that the larger beak of the toucan would make complete destruction of the seed a more difficult task.

You would recommend completely removing the aril portion? Do you think it could contribute to seed rot? It seems to be very fatty and waxy when moistened...

I think I will try removing the seed coat from some of them and soaking in a 500ppm solution of GBA3.

Thank you for the tidbit on the soil type that you think this area may have. I don't know much about soil types and thus won't really worry about this much. I appreciate the insights Bach.
Title: Re: Virola germination info
Post by: caguama on April 04, 2019, 09:05:15 PM
Hey everyone, thus far I have not been successful with the efforts I described above. I sent out virola seeds to various members here in hopes of germinating these stubborn seeds.
I'll have more detailed write up soon about my new efforts and tek I am currently using.
Title: Re: Virola germination info
Post by: DarkPines on April 05, 2019, 04:06:52 AM
I just found this article. I had to translate it though. But there results are very interesting, and some of the discussion at the end is very hepful. Im going to consider a lot of this.

One thing that made sense was that they pointed out how it grows in a kind of swampy environment where water is present the majority of the seeds lives, prolonging their life. Also that brought to mind swamp water is a bunch of acidic, full of life, decaying plant matter shit lol. Ive got a few ideas rummaging around in my head right now with this, with this link in consideration. Im about to plant a few of these possibly in a day or two. Ive got a V. theidora, and the V. surinamensis to try with. 6 seeds total. 4 of the T, and 2 of the S. They feel considerably heavy as well, not that I know what afresh one feels like to compare it to anyway, but hey, im trying to be optimistic lol  8)

lets do it!
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0100-67622007000100005
Title: Re: Virola germination info
Post by: Botanicus on April 05, 2019, 02:20:14 PM
I would remove the aril completely, that's the part the toucans are after. Leave the hard seedcoat though. I think it survives the trek through the bird's intestinal system.

I'm sure parrots and other birds can destroy the seeds altogether before eating them but toucans with their oversize bills aren't equppied to do anything but eat them whole.

You could try removing the hard seedcoat and then treat with GBA just as an experiment.

I imagine you could dilute the muriatic acid maybe by about half and soak for five or ten minutes then rinse thoroughly. Hopefully it inactives any germination inhibitors, but treating with GBA might be a good thing too. This of course would be with the seedcoat still on. I wouldn't treat the naked seeds that way.

Sounds like you have a lot of seeds to treat lots of different ways.   ;D

As a broad guess I would think that the surface of the soil is covered with litter like you described earlier but underneath I would suspect laterite clay. Most rainforest areas have very little topsoil  since the nutrients get sucked up into the canopy very quickly. (This is why tropical soils are so poor for grazing cattle, the soil doesn't really carry the nutrients.)

That said most plants are pretty adaptable to their soil needs so I wouldn't worry about it too much except perhaps to make sure there is lots of iron available. Laterite is very rich in iron and I have grown a few tropicals that are prone to iron deficiency if not grown in high-iron soil.

Thank you for that thoughtful response about the differences in bird species and beak sizes. It makes some sense that the larger beak of the toucan would make complete destruction of the seed a more difficult task.

You would recommend completely removing the aril portion? Do you think it could contribute to seed rot? It seems to be very fatty and waxy when moistened...

I think I will try removing the seed coat from some of them and soaking in a 500ppm solution of GBA3.

Thank you for the tidbit on the soil type that you think this area may have. I don't know much about soil types and thus won't really worry about this much. I appreciate the insights Bach.

I've seen toucans eating Virola in Panama, and it seems that they would most often just remove the aril and discard the husk & seed, as the fruit splits open at maturity. They must swallow some seeds as they are apparently are important dispersal agents for the species.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316219447_Toucans_Ramphastos_ambiguus_facilitate_resilience_against_seed_dispersal_limitation_to_a_large-seeded_tree_Virola_surinamensis_in_a_human-modified_landscape
Title: Re: Virola germination info
Post by: ONandONandON on April 11, 2019, 03:21:06 AM
Virola in same family as nutmeg, apparently nutmegs need mycorizzea symbiosis to flourish.. maybe good idea to grow in non-sterile soil.

Quote
Nutmegs are known to be difficult to germinate and cultivate. The seeds are large but have extremely limited dormancy and fertility after the seed has matured, meaning that the optimum time for germination will only last for a maximum of a few weeks. When the boxes are opened in Delft the seeds are carefully removed and potted in a mixture of one-third lava grains and two-thirds basic mixture of 30 per cent sand and 70 per cent peat. A small sample of old ectomycorrhiza-rich soil is placed near the seed-germination point. This has been taken from mature plants in the forestry-grown collection. This soil sample was very difficult to obtain due to phytosanitary regulations and restrictions; however importation was finally approved in 2001. The seeds are positioned sideways in pots to develop, with the germination tip just under the soil surface, and are kept in a seed germination incubator with bottom heat. Germination normally takes one week, but may take up to a maximum of three weeks. Seeds that arrive with a primary root already developed need approximately one week to adapt to the greenhouse conditions at Delft BG. The germinated seed needs to connect to the ectomycorrhiza as soon as possible for the plant to grow well.
ECTOMYCORRHIZAL ASSOCIATIONS
Mycorrhiza are fungi which form an association with plant roots to the mutual benefit of both fungus and plant (Smith & Read, 2008). Ectomycorrhiza are a type of mycorrhiza that most commonly form associations with a range of woody species (Walker, 2013) and are known to be important for optimal plant growth (Baar & Ozinga, 2007). The presence of ectomycorrhiza in soil samples can be easily recognised on roots by the presence of a structure known as the ‘Hartig net’ (Baar & Ozinga, 2007) (Fig. 1).Whilst a lot of research has been conducted on the value of mycorrhiza for plant growth there has been little research on mycorrhizal associations in pot-grown plants, particularly on tropical species. Without the presence of ectomycorrhiza there is no uptake of nutrients in exchange for carbohydrates (Baar & Ozinga, 2007). Ectomycorrhiza fungi develop into a net share of abundant growth consisting of very slender hyphae with a diameter of 0.0003mm. The ectomycorrhiza covers the rhizodermis and exodermis of the roots like a cloak and its hyphae penetrate into the parenchyma and further (endodermis, phloem and xylem) to envelop the plant cells (Fig. 2). All other mycorrhizal fungi, known as arbuscular mycorrhiza, ericoide mycorrhiza and ectendomycorrhiza, penetrate the host’s cells and are not visible from the outside. As soon as the primary root grows out of the seed, it needs to connect to the ectomycorrhiza to take up nitrogen as well as inorganic nutrients (Figs 3 and 4). At Delft BG fertiliser containing phosphorus is not used because it has been observed that nutmegs do not respond well to additional phosphorus in the soil. The investigation into the reason for this will be part of a future research project. The exchange of nutrients, sugar and water takes place in the Hartig net or between the hyphae of the ectomycorrhiza and the inner root cells. An additional benefit of ectomycorrhiza is the protection of young seedlings from other pathogens.

nutmeg pdf    https://journals.rbge.org.uk/index.php/rbgesib/article/download/28/70

Also i came across some virola seeds for sale on etsy
https://www.etsy.com/listing/682800917/virola-surinamensis-peru-rare-fresh?ref=shop_home_active_2

Quote
The seeds of Virola surinamensis are among the dark germinants, which is why they are covered with soil for successful germination and must be given about 2-3 cm deep into the earth.

Fill breeding pots with a right, spray with water, lay the seeds on the ground, cover them with a layer of soil and, in turn, spray them with water. The best way to cover the breeding pots with plastic wrap and ventilate daily or keep the earth moist. Otherwise, the pots can also be placed in matching room greenhouses until the seeds germinate and the seedlings are a few inches tall. It is important to ensure the supply of fresh air at least once a day in order to prevent and prevent mould.