Share The Seeds
Gardening Area => Plant Propagation => Topic started by: Inyan on July 05, 2018, 04:05:14 PM
-
Or should I wait for the stock to grow a bit more?
-
Haha I'd wait a couple more weeks if I were you ;D
-
Thats a Quiabentia, isnt is MeanGreen? Someday I hope my country gets those.
Inyans are certainly big enough ;D
-
You think if I wait a few weeks these will get that fat? Mine are no where near as short as yours and yet... yours are so much fatter.
-
His are an entirely different genus of cacti, lol
-
Not quiabentia, they do look close but I'm 99% sure this is Pereskiopsis aquosa (https://www.naturalista.mx/taxa/274211-Pereskiopsis-aquosa) a.k.a Jumbo Pere, either way I'm propagating the hell out of it. Also have some variegated P. diguetti.
Edit: @Inyan I was just kidding, and that's a very impressive stock you have there I would love to see how much growth a pere that big would pump in a seedling.
Hit me up if you want a few cuts of the jumbo, guys.
-
Not quiabentia, they do look close but I'm 99% sure this is Pereskiopsis aquosa (https://www.naturalista.mx/taxa/274211-Pereskiopsis-aquosa) a.k.a Jumbo Pere, either way I'm propagating the hell out of it...Hit me up if you want a few cuts of the jumbo, guys.
Pereskiopsis aquosa (F. A. C. Weber) Britton & Rose 1907
Plants shrubby to treelike, branching basally or from above,
2-4 m (6.6-13 ft) high, often with distinct trunks. Stems
glabrous, green, glaucous when young, 1-2.5 cm (0.4—1 in)
in diameter. Leaves obovate to nearly elliptical, 3.5-8 cm
(1.4-3.1 in) long, 2.5-3.2 cm (1-1.3 in) wide, acuminate api-
cally. Areoles round, producing long hairs when young, gray.
Glochids yellow. Spine usually one, sometimes as many as 4,
sometimes absent, rigid, pale yellow to yellowish white, later
gray, 0.5-3.6 cm (0.2-1.4 in) long. Flowers borne at the ends
of branches, golden yellow with reddish tint, 10-16 cm (3.9-
6.3 in) long, 6-7 cm (2.4-2.8 in) in diameter; pericarpels
with bracts. Fruits pear shaped, yellowish green, edible, 6-13
cm (2.4-5.1 in) long, 1.6-3.5 cm (0.6-1.4 in) in diameter,
with abundant glochids.
I stand corrected. I can see why you say 99%, it matches everything but the long hair on young areoles. An awesome looking stock.
I'd love to trade for some but, looking at your grow list, is there anything you dont have yet? ;D
-
... ???
His are an entirely different genus of cacti, lol
Are you trying to say that because it is a different genus mine is somehow inferior for grafting.... sorry, I'm missing your humor.
Do you think a different stock (Genus) would help me graft smaller specimens Auxin?
-
I didnt say the common Pereskiopsis was inferior.
You said..
You think if I wait a few weeks these will get that fat? Mine are no where near as short as yours and yet... yours are so much fatter.
And so I pointed out his was another genus species.
Its not likely for yours to change species in a few weeks ;)
-
I didnt say the common Pereskiopsis was inferior.
You said..
You think if I wait a few weeks these will get that fat? Mine are no where near as short as yours and yet... yours are so much fatter.
And so I pointed out his was another genus species.
Its not likely for yours to change species in a few weeks ;)
I'm still confused... Did you think I was implying that a species or genus could change by allowing them to grow a bit more? If so, I apologize for anything I might have said that may have been misconstrued to make you think that.
I'm all for whatever makes my seedlings or areoles graft better though, so if the consensus is that I need to try a different stock I'm all for trying new things. Not that I'm going to go out of my way to try new things when I can make areole and seedling grafts with 98.5% success with my current methods.
-
You wanted your apple to look like an orange.
I was just saying, no, your P. spathulata wont look like a P. aquosa if given more time.
-
You wanted your apple to look like an orange.
I was just saying, no, your P. spathulata wont look like a P. aquosa if given more time.
I wanted my stock to get bigger, not change from one species to another. But I think I see where the confusion is now.
Now, if you think this is the absolute maximum size this stock can get and any further growth will not be beneficial, that may indeed be true. I'm one of those fools that for someone reason has to experiment and see for myself however if any additional growth may indeed increase things like girth, size of leaves, etc. As my experience has often dictated that the smaller the stock the smaller the girth etc.
A change or hope for a size difference or increase as something ages is not the same as a hope or wish for phenotype change whereby something grows a new structure because it ages or enters a new stage of development.
Again, I am sorry if my implied hope for size to increase as this one ages was taken as a request for a change in phenotype as this one ages.
Now, I can indeed see why you were laughing as I would laugh to if I thought someone believed an apple could literally turn into an orange with age. Perhaps with a few million yeas of evolution something nearing that might be possible, but I was not talking about that kind of change.
Again, my apologies for the miscommunication. 4.5 billion years in the making and communication is still imperfect.
-
...if you think this is the absolute maximum size this stock can get and any further growth will not be beneficial, that may indeed be true. I'm one of those fools that for someone reason has to experiment and see for myself however if any additional growth may indeed increase things like girth, size of leaves, etc. As my experience has often dictated that the smaller the stock the smaller the girth etc...
Oh I experiment too.
That is not the maximum size it can achieve. I grew one until it was over 5 feet tall with 4 main branches and a 3 cm trunk at the base, it was still growing and I only killed it because it had become very awkward and unwieldy to move around. Mainly because at the beginning I didnt plant it deep enough and it began to lean severely.
Its often argued that the typical pereskiopsis, like yours and mine, may not actually be the Pereskiopsis spathulata of Britton & Rose, but if it is they noted it as routinely growing to 6.6 feet tall.
As for ultimate height and girth of scion growth, I'd be surprised (and intrigued) if you havent already passed the point where those would be at a practical maximum.
I routinely see people use stocks way too short but with your two I wouldnt expect much improvement over stocks half that height.
If girth is what your after I do notice one thing. The leaf shape and spines on your two show that they have grown under half to full intensity sun. If I was after maximal girth of scions I would expect that to be produced more from intensity of light than height of stock, provided the stock was at least 1/3 the height of your two.
For ultimate over all size of scion growth, this is totally unverified and purely anecdotal, but I recently read an intriguing post by a thai grafter. We all graft to tender young new growth and pereskiopsis is temporary stock that fails after a year- give or take 6 months, its pereskiopsis 101, he asserted that if one took a grafted peres where the stock had turned 'brown', you know- that aged look with thick waxy cuticle they get after 6 or 8 months, and one degrafted the scion and grafted a new scion to the old woody pereskiopsis that the graft union would be semi-permanent. That the pereskiopsis would not reject the scion after a year or so like normal grafts do. Now, since the one I killed had grown into a bush with a 3 cm trunk its clear that a pereskiopsis base can support substantial mass if given the chance and if that guy was actually correct about that grafting technique producing permanent or semi-permanent graft unions one could grow a HUGE scion on an 8 or 10 inch stock. I like to imagine a bowling ball sized Astrophytum held up by 3 stacks of bricks surrounding a four year old pereskiopsis stock :P
I dont claim that will work, but I do intend to try it some day!
-
...if you think this is the absolute maximum size this stock can get and any further growth will not be beneficial, that may indeed be true. I'm one of those fools that for someone reason has to experiment and see for myself however if any additional growth may indeed increase things like girth, size of leaves, etc. As my experience has often dictated that the smaller the stock the smaller the girth etc...
Oh I experiment too.
That is not the maximum size it can achieve. I grew one until it was over 5 feet tall with 4 main branches and a 3 cm trunk at the base, it was still growing and I only killed it because it had become very awkward and unwieldy to move around. Mainly because at the beginning I didnt plant it deep enough and it began to lean severely.
Its often argued that the typical pereskiopsis, like yours and mine, may not actually be the Pereskiopsis spathulata of Britton & Rose, but if it is they noted it as routinely growing to 6.6 feet tall.
As for ultimate height and girth of scion growth, I'd be surprised (and intrigued) if you havent already passed the point where those would be at a practical maximum.
I routinely see people use stocks way too short but with your two I wouldnt expect much improvement over stocks half that height.
If girth is what your after I do notice one thing. The leaf shape and spines on your two show that they have grown under half to full intensity sun. If I was after maximal girth of scions I would expect that to be produced more from intensity of light than height of stock, provided the stock was at least 1/3 the height of your two.
For ultimate over all size of scion growth, this is totally unverified and purely anecdotal, but I recently read an intriguing post by a thai grafter. We all graft to tender young new growth and pereskiopsis is temporary stock that fails after a year- give or take 6 months, its pereskiopsis 101, he asserted that if one took a grafted peres where the stock had turned 'brown', you know- that aged look with thick waxy cuticle they get after 6 or 8 months, and one degrafted the scion and grafted a new scion to the old woody pereskiopsis that the graft union would be semi-permanent. That the pereskiopsis would not reject the scion after a year or so like normal grafts do. Now, since the one I killed had grown into a bush with a 3 cm trunk its clear that a pereskiopsis base can support substantial mass if given the chance and if that guy was actually correct about that grafting technique producing permanent or semi-permanent graft unions one could grow a HUGE scion on an 8 or 10 inch stock. I like to imagine a bowling ball sized Astrophytum held up by 3 stacks of bricks surrounding a four year old pereskiopsis stock :P
I dont claim that will work, but I do intend to try it some day!
That particular Pereskiopsis is growing in full sun. I have some Pereskiopsis that I am currently growing in partial shade however. As you can probably tell from many of my grafting pictures, a great many of my grafts are planted directly in the full sun outdoors in tilled soil.
Some of my grafts are planted in the shade as well though and like you, I like to experiment.
It is one thing to assert something as a possibility, it is an entirely different thing to show that assertion has actually occurred. It is possible that I am from a planet called Kryptonite. if I was going to make a woody graft attempt I would personally use self-adhesive coban to ensure a tight union. I might even try sandwiching that layer of coban with parafilm.
What method does this person explaining that grafting procedure suggest to make such a union and does he have pictures to show before and after?
-
He didnt go into detail. His english seems to be pretty good after hes had coffee so I'm trying to get more information, particularly on just how long hes maintained woody-grafted grafts. He gave this pic as an example of a graft made to woody peres, not the sexiest or most inspiring pic but I think it was intended only to show that the graft can take.
-
;D
Well he responded. I was guessing his example was a ~6 month old werdermannianus or similar (on too short of a stock).
The above pic is a 3 year old Melocactus graft that hasnt grown in a year.
About 9 months after I would have started thinking the graft union was failing :P
That, combined with a response on shaman-australis, has left be being far less enthused ;)
Back to the drawing board for my bowling ball Astrophytum at pereskiopsis speed.
Edit: Next wacky thought- wedge graft a 6+" Hylo to Peres, when growth is seen graft a Astro to the top. When growth stagnates cut off just above the Peres graft line and wedge graft the Hylo to a new Peres. Repeat until the hylo stock is too short to wedge graft and then root it. 8)
-
How about grafting your astro to like 4 or 5 (or more) pere stocks simultaneously? If the scion is large enough to have its cambium cross the ones on all 4 stocks it is doable and has been done on SAB: http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?/topic/44882-multiple-stock-grafting-using-pereskiopsis-an-experiment/
I'm thinking 5 large pereskiopsis with ample root systems should be able to give you your bowling ball or close to it.
You could even cut the side of each stock vertically, have them graft together and use that as a stock. Sort of like ahat some people do with bonsais, using several trees tied together until they fuse together.
-
I've thought about that, and even tried it once, but theyd have to plug into an intermediate permanent stock anyway.
When the graft fails I've had it cause rot to go up the inside of the scion and its not good practice, in my opinion, to leave a stump of pereskiopsis in a degrafted globular. A permanent stock base (jusbertii, hylo, myrtilo, or of course Opuntia!) could graft to multiple peres, but successive single grafts would be easier from a practical standpoint.
Still, it would be funny to graft an opuntia to peres on bottom and globular on top then when it fails graft in a new peres and wait until it succeeds before degrafting the old and just have the round pad kind of go back and forth being grafted on one side or the other, mounted to a post in the middle. A time lapse video would be hilarious.
-
Auxin: After seeing the graft in question... I have a few that look like that. Not sure I would accept that as anything worth trying to achieve. Especially so at that height.
MeanGreen: Multiple grafts are fine, but do they really push any more into the scion? Each stock also provides for an additional matter of pruning. When all is said and done, I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that at a certain size the stock is going to max out growth on any scion and no more will be gained from any additional sourced stock plugged into the side.
And yes, I've experimented with multiple stocks for scions with both Brugmansia and cacti in general. From a practical standpoint, if you want something that looks creative and you want to have multiple different colored or formed flowers it may make sense... but then you are also pumping out multiple scions up top as well. Any one of which could fail as often times the stock seems to pick one scion over another to push hard and the others may grow slow or even stop growing altogether after a time.
-
Not quiabentia, they do look close but I'm 99% sure this is Pereskiopsis aquosa (https://www.naturalista.mx/taxa/274211-Pereskiopsis-aquosa) a.k.a Jumbo Pere, either way I'm propagating the hell out of it. Also have some variegated P. diguetti.
Edit: @Inyan I was just kidding, and that's a very impressive stock you have there I would love to see how much growth a pere that big would pump in a seedling.
Hit me up if you want a few cuts of the jumbo, guys.
Are you still propagating a lot of the Pereskiopsis aquosa ? Its really hard to find, especially in Canada :(